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 Re: Careful with the man; Decisive with the error

"by crsschk on 2005/7/2 7:08:46

He is gotten older and feel that he ought to command our deepest respect and giving thanks to God for all these years of giving of himself to the Lords work.

Certainly understand the concerns that can come forth from these things and can't but help wonder what may be happening now with his health declining"

Are you suggesting that Graham is senile? Senile people don't usually preach crusades to thousands as Graham has so recently done. I think when we make any mere man "untouchable" and elevate him above the rest of us, we're in for trouble.

Isn't it true that we can all produce a list of men who began well, but did not finish so well? Not that we are to judge Graham. But pointing out his error is especially important now because it comes out of the mouth of someone the world respects. This makes any lie or heresy more powerful and deceptive. Now I didn't hear the interview, but if what these friends have quoted from the Larry King interview are true, we should all be quick to counter those statements and denounce them publicly.

Here is another previous interview of Billy Graham by Larry King. Does this sound like a conservative Bible Believer, or a liberal pseudo-Catholic? You be the judge:


Sunday, April 3, 2005

BILLY GRAHAM TELLS LARRY KING THAT POPE JOHN PAUL II WAS "MOST INFLUENTIAL VOICE" IN 100 YEARS

By Michael Ireland
Chief Correspondent, ASSIST News Service

LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA (ANS) -- Speaking on the April 2 edition of CNN's Larry King Live program Dr. Billy Graham said that that Pope John Paul II was the most influential voice for morality and peace in the world in the last 100 years.

Dr. Graham told Larry King he had the privilege of seeing the Pope on several occasions at the Vatican.

"And tonight, I have a very strange feeling of loss. I almost feel as though one of my family members has gone. I loved him very much and had the opportunity of discussing so many things with him. And we wrote each other several times during the years," Dr. Graham said.

Larry King asked Dr. Graham: "Did he actually say to you once, "We are brothers' "?

GRAHAM: That's correct. He certainly did. He held my hand the first time that I met him about 1981 -- he'd just been Pope for two years when I saw him first. Because when he was elevated to the papacy, I was preaching in his cathedral in Krakow that very day. And we had thousands of people in the streets. And watching the television today of Krakow has brought back many memories.

KING: You said that he was an Evangelist.

GRAHAM: He was, indeed. He traveled throughout the world to bring his Christian message to the world. And we see tonight the outpouring from the world that he touched. And I think he touched almost everybody in the whole world.

KING: What, Billy, in your thoughts -- you said you feel like it's a personal loss. What in the human sense was so special about him?

GRAHAM: I think it was his background in Poland. And I had finished preaching all over Poland, gotten to know many people, and I knew a little bit about where he came from.

"And he was a suffering pope, too. He suffered as much as anybody you could ever imagine. His mother died when he was young. And he had that terrible assassination attack. And through it all, he taught us how to suffer. And I think in recent days he's taught us how to die.

KING: There is no question in your mind that he is with God now?

GRAHAM: Oh, no. There may be a question about my own, but I don't think Cardinal Wojtyla, or the Pope -- I think he's with the Lord, because he believed. He believed in the Cross. That was his focus throughout his ministry, the Cross, no matter if you were talking to him from personal issue or an ethical problem, he felt that there was the answer to all of our problems, the cross and the resurrection. And he was a strong believer.

KING: I understand that you've been invited to the funeral, but because of your own health, you can't attend. But someone in the Graham family is going to go?

GRAHAM: That's correct.

KING: Do you know who will go?

GRAHAM: I don't have the physical strength to go, and I have been invited. I was invited about six or seven months ago by the Vatican ahead of time. And they've asked that I come. So I asked if I could send my daughter. They wanted a woman to come representing me. So I'm asking my daughter, Anne Lotz, to go. And she's going with an associate of mine. And then my son, Franklin, will be going to the enthronement of the new Pope.

 2005/7/3 4:01Profile
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 Re: Agree with crsschk

crsschk,

I looked into the senile question on Graham. I think he probably is. If that is what you are suggesting, I think I agree with you. This recent Larry King interview seems to portray Graham in a less than sharp state. What got me is the substituting the "Nigerian Creed" for the "Nicene Creed."

I think we can all be relieved that these comments didn't seem to come from the more "sharp" Graham of yesteryear. Here is the article that persuaded me:

Tuesday, June 21, 2005

Billy Graham on Larry King



religionjournal.com

A frail Billy Graham talked to Larry King about his multiple ailments and said that he was "looking forward to heaven." King introduced Graham as "the world's most famous evangelist." Graham began the interview with a hoarse voice that gradually grew more steady, and talked about a career on the revival trail that spanned over 60 years.

The broadcast was punctuated with short clips from Graham's appearances on-camera since 1949. The opening clip showed a vigorous 30-year-old Graham in Los Angeles, gesticulating with fervor, a sharp contrast to the 86-year-old man in the studio. "As I got older, I guess I got more mellow," said Graham.

During the interview Graham occasionally became confused, once substituting "the Nigerian Creed" for the Nicene Creed, the basic Christian beliefs adopted during the fourth century. "I'm getting mixed up," he said to King.

Graham has been struggling with hydroencephaly, a brain condition that has required four surgeries in the last four years. He also has prostate cancer and Parkinson's disease. He broke his hip on two recent occasions and now must use a walker.

"If I fall again, that might be the end of me," said Graham.

As usual, Graham steered clear of controversy. He stayed consistent with his previously stated views, that he opposes gay marriage and abortion. "But I'm not getting into it," Graham said. "I'm trying to stay out of politics."

Graham, who has been friends with all American presidents since Harry Truman, said that talking politics was one of his greatest regrets in his close friendship with Richard Nixon. As for Nixon tapes that revealed Graham making seemingly anti-Jewish comments, Graham says he told Jewish leaders "I'd crawl to them and ask for forgiveness."

Graham will conduct a crusade in New York City June 24-26 at Flushing Meadows Park. He said he suspects that this will be his last such event. As for a future event in London, Graham allowed that "there's a possibility I may go, but I'd say that is a small possibility."

Reflecting on his life as the world's most widely known evangelist, he told King, "I'll ask the Lord the first thing when I get to heaven -- why me?"

 2005/7/3 4:52Profile
aeryck
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 Sending and Old Soldier home with prayers instead of tears

My 2c worth:

'It might be a good idea if we take the advice of Larry Norman and David Wilkerson, 'if you don't like the way they are doing it, why don't ya 'go' and fill in for them,' & 'The Lord's Army is the only one who tramples down her wounded'

I think the earlier comment? about uniting the site in prayer for this Old Soldier, that he many go home shining for Jesus, would be a wonderful incense in the nostrils of the Father?
In Jesus,
.A.
:-P


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Eric John Sawyer

 2005/7/3 10:55Profile









 Re: Sending and Old Soldier home with prayers instead of tears

I have found major problems with Billy Graham since the mid 1990’s. I actually taped his interview with David Frost, an eye opener to say the least. He was asked about the fast spread of Islam around the world and waltzed all around the real issue and closed with the fact that he believed we (Christians) were a lot closer to Islam than we supposed. He also said Mohammed had great respect for Jesus as one of the greatest of the Prophets, except for himself--Mohammed believed he himself to be the greatest!

He also stated in this same interview the following: That he had actually had 4 (four) conversions in his life: His first conversion was to Jesus Christ. His second conversion was to work for racial justice. His third was to work for world peace. His fourth conversion was to work for the social benefit of people- the homeless and the less fortunate. My problem with the above “conversions” is that God’s Word tells me that there is only one conversion to Jesus Christ. This one conversion provides us with a new heart and a new spirit as well. From this one conversion to Christ, he is the one that changes our desires and our wants. There is only one conversion to Jesus Christ, He, through the power of the Holy Spirit is the one that makes us a new creature---not our “conversion” to a social doctrine, a social gospel of "good works".

In this same interview with David Frost, David asked him about his view of “do you think that those people who have never have heard the Name of Christ or the message of God or Heaven, do you think Mr. Graham if there is any special place for people like this? A place like Purgatory or something like it in the Bible?" His (Billy's) response is deafening in it’s political correctness and waltzing around an issue. "THAT IS A DEBATE THAT IS GOING ON, ESPECIALLY IN ENGLAND AT PRESENT. I DON’T HAVE ANY THOUGHTS ON THAT BECAUSE I DON’T KNOW. I DON’T THINK THE BIBLE TEACHES, ONE WAY OR THE OTHER."


I could go on and on about this. I came forward at a Billy Graham rally in 1962 and know that I will meet him in heaven. As Christians, we are known for eating our own. I will let Christ be the Judge at the Bema Judgment seat of rewards as far as Mr. Graham is concerned.

In the meantime, we are to look up to no man, only Jesus Christ the God Man!

God bless,

Stever

 2005/7/3 18:55
letsgetbusy
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Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
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 Re:

Ray Comfort is today's Wesley. He is lighting the fire for open-air preaching. How can such a cutting edge message be growing as his is? I believe it is because it is so Biblically sound. Doctrine is important, but not nearly as important as Biblical evangelism. What good is a guy who knows every prophesy and symbolism in Scripture but never influences a soul toward Christ. Faith without works is dead. Comfort still hits the streets, just like they did in the New Testament.


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Hal Bachman

 2005/7/5 0:40Profile
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 What is the right response?

Aeryck said:

Quote:
...take the advice of Larry Norman and David Wilkerson, 'if you don't like the way they are doing it, why don't ya 'go' and fill in for them,'



This advice is one way to squelch unjust criticism. However, it can also be a way squelch all justified expressions of concern.

When the message of the Bible loses its salt, and becomes diluted, as seems to be the case in Billy Graham, then we must not put our heads in the sand. These days countless people are eagerly embracing any message that points the WIDE way to Christ. However, in doing so, they have accepted a FALSE gospel. As long as they think this saves them, they are deluded and are going to hell. So are the ones who have "led" them to this kind of salvation.

Our response aught to be one of deep grief and agony. We need to try to understand why this has been happening. And we need to examine our own hearts, for none of us are any better. It is a time of bitter sifting among the saints.

It may be harsh for me to say this, but I suspect that many who are protective of BG, and who wish to overlook and excuse such "flaws" may very well trust in the gospel of easy believism themselves.

Having said that, I also believe that for those who are genuinely seeking God, and are willing to surrender their lives to him, God will use whomever he wishes, in spite of their flaws. It is not for us to write any one off.
Diane


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Diane

 2005/7/5 8:23Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Are you suggesting that Graham is senile? Senile people don't usually preach crusades to thousands as Graham has so recently done. I think when we make any mere man "untouchable" and elevate him above the rest of us, we're in for trouble.



I have met a lot of people, but the arrogance of some of these posts takes me aback. Surely you understand that Billy Graham has alzheimers disease? There are days when the man probably does not know his wife and children. The reason why he still ministers is that so many that God could have used in similar fashion to him have either fallen or are in some sort of error. I am not saying I agree with him staying in the limelight at this time by any means; I am merely pointing out some basic facts. You may recall that Ronald Reagan wrote a goodby letter to the American people while he was still able and went into seclusion. The people around him should counsel him to refrain from these types of appearances knowing that he is sorely ill. Again, this can be difficult to do because of the sensitive nature of dealing with folk with dementia and alzheimers. You may be talking to them one minute and they be as sharp as a pin and the next minute they don't know where they are or their own name. Hulsey asked for prayer for the man. what is it about you that you are dead set bent on seeing this man of God smeared?




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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/7/5 8:43Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
crsschk,

I looked into the senile question on Graham. I think he probably is. If that is what you are suggesting, I think I agree with you. This recent Larry King interview seems to portray Graham in a less than sharp state. What got me is the substituting the "Nigerian Creed" for the "Nicene Creed."

I think we can all be relieved that these comments didn't seem to come from the more "sharp" Graham of yesteryear. Here is the article that persuaded me:

Tuesday, June 21, 2005



This is exactly what I am referring to. Once the man is smeared real good- write a retraction of sorts. The problem with that is that by the time the retraction goes out- the damage is done. Those who are of a faithful spirit will 'conceal the matter'. The thing that is scarry to me is that God will hold us accountable for these types of things. We are not talking about a heretic here. We are talking about a man who has brought forth the Gospel in the light that he had for decades. When we are 80+ years old what are we going to be saying and doing? Stunning that a young man of a whole 18 years old came into our church and declared Graham to be a false prophet. He wist not that in many areas he was false himself. Where does the boldness come from to just take a swing at men like that? My parents were not even born again Christians and I was raised with more respect than that. Sinners have more respect than to deride a man like that. Maybe I just missed something some place?


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/7/5 8:54Profile
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 Re: What is the right response?

Quote:
It is not for us to write any one off.



Amen. Ask Josiah or Balaam about who or what God will use to speak.

I attended the necessary classes just last year to be a 'counselor' in the Kansas City Crusade. The time constraints on these types of events is such that one cannot reasonably expect a person to become a friend of God in just a few short hours or even days and weeks. We all know that God is working things out in our lives through His providence to bring us into a place where He has revealed Himself to us and we are offered opportunity to respond rightly in faith. No one individual in this earth is responsible for a person being brought to Christ. Billy Graham is not God. We of all people ought to know this.

Paul planted- Apollas watered, etc.. Preaching hard and viciously at people will only have a certain effect also. Salvation is a process that God works out in a persons life. They may come to a Billy Graham Crusade and go forward and all that really happened is that God awakened them out of their 'careless state' and made them an 'awakened sinner'. It may have been only one step in the process. Some that go forward God has been dealing with for years to get them to that place. It was not Billy Graham's great preaching that did it or even some great anointing- it is God revealing Himself in the sinners life and these ministers just happen to be one more link in the chain leading them to Christ. God will use all sorts of people and things to get us to the crossroads. We need to keep this in mind fervently as we consider any ministry. There are no one man shows. [u]God[/u] is [i]orchestrating[/i] His whole plan to bring about the salvation of sinners. He could have performed salvation any way He wanted I suppose- but one way He has chosen is through human agency. God is aware of our shortcomings. We get so caught up in police-ing each other that we do more damage pointing out each others errors than the errors themselves. Sometimes it is better to be still and let God be God. Go tell a new convert Billy Graham is false and see what you do to their faith if they came to Christ in that crusade. This is the danger. We have to use judgment and caution. We have to be willing to not always have to "play God".


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/7/5 9:12Profile
MrBillPro
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3238
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 Re: The good and bad of Billy Graham

Quote:

crossman4God wrote:
Billy has been used of the Lord to spread the Gospel, but his latest words are distrubing to me. Larry King asked him if God loved the Devil, he said"I imagine He does". My response was ,WHAT?????



My response would be God is Love and God created the Devil did he not? and I am sure it's possible that he could Love him he just created him for a different reason, just like he created all of us for different reasons, God uses Satan to punish and to chasten people.We,like Lucifer, are created with free wills, and we can choose whether we will serve God or rebel against Him and be cast out.God makes a distinction between sin and sinners. He hates sin, but He loves sinners, even the chief of sin, Satan.
:-)


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Mr. Bill

 2005/7/5 9:39Profile





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