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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : Tozer believed in Consubstantiation

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sdidde
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Joined: 2005/2/16
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Milpitas, CA, USA

 Tozer believed in Consubstantiation

I recently listened to a sermon by Tozer, where he explicitly stated the process of consubstantiation, as defined by Luther.
I wish I could quote the reference, but my question is, was this a belief that Tozer had early in his ministry, or was it something he believed in, throughout his ministry?
I know this is a non-essential but still would like to know.


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Stephen

 2018/8/7 22:14Profile
Heydave
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 Re: Tozer believed in Consubstantiation

'Consubstantiation'? I can even say it, never mind know what it is! :)


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Dave

 2018/8/8 4:52Profile
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 Re:

Consubstantiation, the doctrine, especially in Lutheran belief, that the substance of the bread and wine coexists with the body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist.


I believe Tozer believed the Lord's Supper was more then just symbolism but rather there was a mystical sense to it of Christ's body and blood. Many reformed groups even in the symbolism camp would have wording in their liturgies that essentially the elements are so holy that they should be treated "as-if" they were the body and blood of our Lord.

The modern way of being careless with the Lord's Supper in some modern evangelical churches is a down-trodding of all that is holy in the Church.

God has always shown me since I was a young believer that there is a mystery to it and it should be done very reverently when taking the Lords Supper.

A reading of John 6 surely opens our eyes to this.


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SI Moderator - Greg

 2018/8/8 5:58Profile
Heydave
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 Re:

Jesus said that 'when two or three gather in His name, there He is in the midst of them'.

So any time we meet together 'in His name' we should be reverent and aware that He is with us, in our midst. This is true of the Lord's supper (bread and wine), but not any more so than other acts of worship.

I don't think we have to have a mystical, or superstitious attitude to have an awareness to Christ being with us. If we look at when Christ instituted this at Passover with His Apostles, He was actually present with them (physically and spiritually) yet said the bread was His body and the wine was His blood. Surely he meant 'it represents His body and blood' because His blood was still in His veins and He was there in body! In the same way today, He is present spiritually with us when we gather in His name, and not in some strange way 'in the bread and wine'.

It seems to me that it may be that this 'consubstantiation' doctrine was a compromise by Luther to reject the RC 'Transubstantiation' teaching, but offer an alternative and lesser mystical experience that still satisfied the religious heart.

Edit: Added to paragraph 3


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Dave

 2018/8/8 10:13Profile
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 Re:

I think the “mystical” aspect simply means that something special is happening when believers take the Lord’s Supper.

I have seen youth group kids take communion using pizza and coke and that did not sit right with me. There was no reverence or reflection. Could there be reverence and reflection if pizza and coke I are used for the communion elements? Possibly, but I think someone like Art Katz would gag over the idea.

I think it should be a solemn sacrament.


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Todd

 2018/8/8 10:48Profile
havok20x
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 Re:

I am a firm believer that the Lord's Supper is not just mere symbolism. The level of consequences that are shown in Corinthians testifies to this. If it were merely a symbolic act, then why was the Lord judging (and even killing!) the Corinthian believers over their haphazard taking of it?

I actually don't agree that something happens to the wine (or Welch's, if you go to my church...lol) or the bread (cracker if your at my church) when you take it. That's silly. Something happens to the PARTICIPANT.

Seems to me that the following things happen to the believer:

1) They self examine
2) The Holy Spirit convicts
3) The believer responds in repentance and worship
4) The sacrifice of Jesus is magnified
5) God in His grace, reminds them that Jesus is indeed the Passover, purchasing for us our pardon
6) The believer takes it (if done appropriately) to display the inward working of the Spirit in his life, even in that moment.

That is not just a symbol. The Spirit of God is doing something in the heart of the believer at that time. There have been times where I have been preparing to partake in the Lord's Supper and have had to make sure that I forgive/repent/etc before I do so--and that is prompted by the Spirit, as shown in Corinthians.

 2018/8/8 11:15Profile
Gloryandgrace
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 Re:


This is not a vote necessarily for consubstantiation, but what Greg said was spot-on. AMEN and AMEN.


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Marvin

 2018/8/8 11:19Profile
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 Re:

Like Havok: I too believe communion is more than the elements, it involves the active presence of Jesus, the active faith of the believer and the understanding of what partaking of communion truly means.

The warning in 1: Cor 11:29 align with the warnings found in numerous places For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

The Arc, the tent of meeting, the sacrifices, the fire, the blood all symbolic and all were held sacred; these were not sacred by reason of their manufacture but by reason of God who sanctifies the article.

I love taking communion and I hate when it's treated like a bullet point in a service order.

There is more to communion than symbol, what is sacred is always more than symbol.


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Marvin

 2018/8/8 11:37Profile
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 Re:

In no way do I suggest that we should be lighthearted or casual when taking the bread and wine in remembering the Lords death 'until He comes'. However I do believe there is a lot of wrong 'church' tradition attached to it.

Havok,
Don't you consider that the 6 points you listed should apply all the time? I mean if a church only takes the Lord's supper once or twice a month, is it then OK not to examine yourself and repent the rest of the time? Does the Holy Spirit only convict at the Lord's supper? Should we not be conscious at all times that christ is our sacrifice for sin, etc, etc?

What is often read during the Lord's supper in most churches from 1 Corinthians is in context a judgment against what was a total shambles of feasting and drunkeness, which I have never witnessed in any church. And yet this is put upon the church bringing condemnation to those weak in their faith.


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Dave

 2018/8/8 11:41Profile
AbideinHim
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 Re:

I agree with Brother Greg and several of you that believe that most of the Church has not grasped or appropriated the real meaning and value of communion.

Whereas the Catholic Church falsely believes that the bread and the wine becomes the Body and blood of Jesus when consecrated by a priest, most of the protestant Church does not embrace the spiritual reality of communion.

When we receive communion, by faith we are partaking of the Body and Blood of Christ. It is not merely a ritual that we are going through.

If we can be sick by partaking of the Body and Blood of the Lord unworthily, we can also be healed by receiving communion as life for our whole being: spirit, soul, and body.

There is also an aspect of communion not only between the Lord and us, but the communion and fellowship with one another.


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Mike

 2018/8/8 12:14Profile





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