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StirItUp
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Joined: 2016/6/4
Posts: 941
Johannesburg, South Africa

 Re:

Quote dspks: "A humble question:

Who told you we have not yet arrived at this "then"?

"

We certainly do not know more than Paul did and have not arrived at any perfection more perfect than his in Christ and he was the one encouraging the use of all the gifts, in love, and the one teaching that when "then" comes their would be no further use for the gifts. "Then" being when we actually meet our Lord face to face, not some spiritualised face to face, or the perfection of a body of teaching


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William

 2018/8/6 4:15Profile
StirItUp
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Joined: 2016/6/4
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Johannesburg, South Africa

 Re:

Brother Marvin,

A beautifully stated rebuttal of a doctrine which has done much damage to the body of Christ and the joy of being the communion of saints.

God bless,


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William

 2018/8/6 4:18Profile
StirItUp
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Joined: 2016/6/4
Posts: 941
Johannesburg, South Africa

 Re:

" Now that God has spoken in the last days through his Son (Heb. 1:2), we don't need further words from him to explain what Jesus Christ has accomplished in his ministry, death, and resurrection."

Agreed, however, we certainly are in desperate need of inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the teaching of the Holy Spirit, the equipping of the Holy Spirit, the encouragement of the Holy Spirit...and in body life context that happens through the gifts of the Holy Spirit, which include prophecy, healings, miracles, tongues (oh yes, tongues), interpretation of tongues etc .

Quench NOT the Spirit, despise not prophesyings...test all things.

Blessings,


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William

 2018/8/6 4:59Profile
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2000
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I tend to lean toward NOT to put much stock in believing ANY current "revelations" or "prophecies" proclaimed by men or women today.

I DO believe in "signs of the times"... but, when people actually predict specific events.... I tend to sit back and relax in the Lord.

No one can fault someone who simply sticks with the prophecies clearly stated in Scripture.



You seem to have defined prophesy exclusively as the foretelling of future events. Although the foretelling of future events is prophesy, so is a word from God, spoken by a man, that edifies, exhorts, and comforts as in 1 Cor. 14. This gift is closely akin to tongues and interpretation, words of wisdom, and words of knowledge. For example, Timothy is advised to war a good warfare according to the prophesies spoken over him. My own experience in these things leads me to believe that this was probably a prophetic word spoken over Timothy that had to do with His gifting, calling, and God's desire for His life. Not so much a foretelling of a future event, but a statement of divine purpose and destiny.

If a prophesy is meant to foretell future events, then there is no way for those standing around to judge or discern except by a witness of the Holy Spirit. If I said, "God says that in two years an elephant is going to crash through the roof of your house.", the only way to judge this, outside of the Holy Spirit, is to wait two years. The whole question of judging then becomes pretty silly in a way.

But a prophesy such as I described above is another story. We have the written word of God to which the prophetic word must conform. We also have the Holy Spirit that bears witness in the spirit of Godly men. I have heard people, even well meaning people, give "prophesies" that I knew immediately were from their flesh and not the Spirit of God. I have also experienced the true many, many times.

Another interesting way of judging the prophetic word is by confirmation. For example, God gave me a very specific word for a man in our fellowship. I did not know when I was to deliver this word, and prayed about it. Eventually, during a service, God revealed to me the time was right, and I went to the man and gave Him what God had told me. A couple of weeks later, I am talking to the pastor about this man's situation. The pastor shared with me that his wife had been given a very specific word of prophesy for this man within the last couple of weeks, and that she had spoken it to Him. It was exactly the same word that I had been given and had spoken to the man. So within the space of a week, God spoke the same word to Him through two individuals, confirming to Him and to us that it was from Him.

1 Cor. 2 is an amazing chapter about the working of the Holy Spirit in the life of a believer. We find in the latter few verses that the natural man cannot judge nor can he discern the things of the Spirit of God. So we cannot, through our own natural intellect or understanding, judge these things correctly. But the spiritual man judges all and yet is judged of no man. The spiritual man has the mind of Christ and can discern the spiritual condition of a thing. It is like this. If I am a mathematician, I can easily spot where you are doing your sums incorrectly and I can see the underlying error in your mathematical thinking. But you as a person who is not mathematical cannot discern whether I am doing integral calculus wrong or not. Not a perfect analogy, but a man filled with and governed by the Holy Spirit has a spiritual perception (spiritual eyes and ears) to see beyond the natural into the spiritual and judge these things. But the natural man does not even understand these things because they are spiritually discerned.


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Travis

 2018/8/6 8:30Profile
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2000
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
"Paul says the church is “built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets” (Eph. 2:20). I conclude that all we need to know for salvation and sanctification has been given to us through the teaching of the apostles and prophets, and that this teaching is now found in the Scriptures. Now that God has spoken in the last days through his Son (Heb. 1:2), we don't need further words from him to explain what Jesus Christ has accomplished in his ministry, death, and resurrection. Instead, we are “to contend for the faith that was delivered to the saints once for all” through the apostles and prophets (Jude 3)." Thomas Schreiner



I am not sure who Thomas Schreiner is, but I cannot agree with what he is saying. The primary reason is that, although his language is concise, his handling of scripture in this case is that of a man searching for unrelated proof texts for a doctrine he is already bound to defend. We must read the first three chapters of the book of Ephesians in their whole to understand what Paul means by "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets". We cannot pull that simple phrase out and add meaning to it. What Mr. Schreiner is interpreting this verse to mean is this. "The church is built upon the writings of the apostles and prophets and nothing else". The problem is that this is reading meaning into a passage that is simply not there. It is deceptive, just like, "Has God really said thou shalt not eat? What he really meant was this..."

Eph. 2:20 and surrounding is really saying in context is this. God, through Christ, abolished the wall of separation between Jew and Gentile. Now we Gentiles also have access to the Father by the same Holy Spirit. We all now, both Jew and Gentile, are fellowcitizens of the same kingdom and we are all built upon the foundation that was laid by both the old testament prophets and the new testament apostles. This interpretation is in context, and is reiterated by Paul in Romans 3:21 when he says, "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets".

We could do the same with Hebrews 1:2. Mr. Schreiner has pulled that one out of context and applied his own meaning to it as well.


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Travis

 2018/8/6 8:42Profile
Gloryandgrace
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Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1117
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Thomas Schriener: I have one of this books on New Testament Theology. It's really good stuff, and Dr Schriener has a fair amount to say on the subject of Gifts, seeing as he wrote a book on it, (Ive not read it)

But I do know for certain at the end of his discussions he is a cessationist. He's a Baptist ( reformed ) but wants to keep the peace between cessationist and continuationist.

Schriener's quote: I found this explanation to be concise:


"Paul says the church is “built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets” (Eph. 2:20). I conclude that all we need to know for salvation and sanctification has been given to us through the teaching of the apostles and prophets, and that this teaching is now found in the Scriptures. Now that God has spoken in the last days through his Son (Heb. 1:2), we don't need further words from him to explain what Jesus Christ has accomplished in his ministry, death, and resurrection. Instead, we are “to contend for the faith that was delivered to the saints once for all” through the apostles and prophets (Jude 3)." Thomas Schreiner

Dr.s Schrieners quote contains the underlying reason he cannot stomach the gifts of prophecy etc is because of this
"Now that God has spoken in the last days through his Son (Heb. 1:2), we don't need further words from him to explain what Jesus Christ has accomplished in his ministry, death, and resurrection. Instead, we are “to contend for the faith that was delivered to the saints once for all” through the apostles and prophets (Jude 3)."
He is saying as all cessationist do...prophecy is adding to the word of God, that if we truly prophecy we are adding scripture to the closed canon of scripture...which in turn violates several scripture texts Rev 22 for one; namely "do not add to the words of this prophecy"

Whether it be a weak or strong cessationist argument, I don't know, but I do know he cannot in good conscience allow prophecy without thinking he is permitting the addition of a 'prophet' adding scripture by his 'prophesying'.

This is why he points back to the Hebrews text speaking of Jesus as God's final word ( like the Michael Card song).
So he says " We don't need further words to explain".
This again is why I emphatically say "you cannot let those who do not believe there are gifts of the Spirit available to the body" to tell you how those gifts should or should not function. All they can tell you is their wooden version of scripture devoid of any actual experience. By analogy it's similar to letting a cultist tell a true Christ what Christ is about and who he is. He cant even though he can quote text after text on the subject.

I say this too because those who minister in the prophetic ( godly and true prophetic) are extremely careful to not say anything amiss of the written word of God). They extremely careful not to add or take away anything from the closed canon of scripture. But Schriener and those of his opinion never get past the falsehood that those who are New Testament prophets or even just have the gift do not believe they are getting 'new scripture revelation', they do not believe they are adding or taking away from any apostolic teaching already commonly available in scripture and in the teachings of godly men.

This means the new testament prophet must have the knowledge and discerning to know scripture teaching and know and discern what is the Spirit of God and what is not.
In short, those who believe and operate in these gifts have vastly more knowledge and experience in discerning the truth from falsehood, error from scripture and godliness vs ungodly man-centered teaching.

Now, someone like Dr Schriener ( who I appreciate and thank God for) is an academic, meaning he lives for being a book-worm on every subject and has done his homework. I don't doubt this at all. But, academics will never replace Holy Spirit experience/teaching to give understanding to spiritual things and make connections to spiritual things intellect and rationality will not and cannot do.


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Marvin

 2018/8/6 11:39Profile
Gloryandgrace
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Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1117
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:

On a practical note:

The best bible students don't always know which direction to turn, each direction seems as viable as the other.
The best Christians don't always know what to pray for or how to pray in all situations.
The best leaders do not know what decisions are best or which one God is telling them.
The best teachers do not understand all scripture texts clearly or how they connect or relate to other texts.
The best evangelists don't know what sermon is necessary and what the Spirit of God would have them speak to the unsaved.

I could add to this all day long, the point is, even the best of us draw a blank, we get confused or frustrated, we seek God, believe God, are patient and willing and have no agenda but are willing to do the will of the Lord. This is where giftedness comes in to play an important part in edifying the Church. This is where a word of knowledge or wisdom discerns between 'which scripture is applicable' and which is not, or what direction to go when being willing is present but unwilling to presume just any next step is 'ok' with God.
This is where that timely word, that encouragement, that time of praying in tongues or that prophetic word plants the seed or waters a prayer or even provides an insight that was the key to proceeding in the walk of faith.
This and a thousand more examples can be given where the gifts of God are there as the body of Christ ministers unto itself in love.

But, instead when various ones insist these gifts were something other than for the edification of the Church, they became signs and wonders lifted up and categorized way beyond the Spirit's intention. Now they are 'signs' relegated to establishment of canon, or they are wonders to validate an apostle or validate the ministry of an apostle.
Well, who can compete with that? I cant, Im not an apostle, Im not seeking to add to the new testament by signs, words and utterances designed to bring forth the whole counsel of God.
The only thing left is to listen to teachers, thousands and thousands of teachers who incapable of explaining the experiences of gifted men are left to fumble in the dark analyzing and characterizing gifts and manifestations so in the end, no one in this present day can compete with the romanticized and exalted gifting's that nobodies like myself could ever attain to.

The reality is of course quite different. I have attained to them, not by works but by faith. I believed God and he gave me some gifts. It was not my status in the Church that made the way for gifts it was my faith in God who gives them. He then teaches me how and where to minister according to his Spirit leading.

If the teachers of our age were as believing as they are educated they would be instructing and praying for this. Namely "As a teacher after me comes miracles" So, as we multiply teachers we should be multiplying miracles too. But, we know by these same teachers miracles are relegated to the charlatan never the legitimate minister of the gospel. In effect what happens? The very word they pretend to teach they cannot demonstrate because they do not believe the word they teach...and this because their own teachers did not believe.

Then because some poor slob like myself is graced to minister in some prophetic word or God fills so many with his Holy Spirit as I have laid hands on them or God has healed so many as the Spirit designed to do...must in fact say so as if it is some spectacular thing. It's as if when I say it, it must either be false or exaggerated or lies...because I am a living demonstration their teaching is in error.

Who am I, I am not a Ph.D., I am not educated I am not approved of men... but I know this, in my prayers I didn't consult the approval of men, nor did I seek the education of man, nor did I receive instruction from God that I was not qualified by reason of a lack of theological education. I was gifted because I asked in faith and acted in faith and left the results to God.

What I have done was perfectly in line with a plain reading of scripture and mixed with faith God glorified himself in blessing and helping others.

What my teachers have done is believe un-empowered men who have the credentials of man and the approval of man; these opened the bible and expounded unto me why the bible says someone like me cannot obtain them and should not seek them and therefore continue to listen to these teachers as they are what it means to be empowered by the Spirit of God.

The irony as I see is astonishing.


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Marvin

 2018/8/6 14:08Profile
Gloryandgrace
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Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1117
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


What does this have to do with judging prophecies?

If you believe God speaks through an anointed vessel to give a prophetic word to the Church or an individual or to a group...if you are spiritual you seek to discern the spirit of God within that prophecy, you attempt make sure it is not in contradiction to the written canon of God's word, you discern whether it be a contrivance of men or an empowering word from God.
You may also discern whether or not it characterizes Christ in an unbiblical way or Characterizes him in a biblical exalting way.
You may discern whether it has the earmarks of man's authority about it, or whether it carries that anointing present where God is present.

A word of knowledge may in fact be very short and concise, it may be just a few words directed to an individual...which only the individual can judge properly.
Now, we know lunatic stuff like "You should divorce your wife and marry this new one I have for you" should be condemned as fast as it is spoken. Stuff that's way off base is not hard to spot and should be judged by the leaders when it is given.

If you are a cessationist...you will do none of this because all if it is never discerned its just condemned outright. There is no reason to spend a moment 'discerning' a prophetic word when in fact your doctrine condemns you for permitting or validating such a word.
Cessationists do not discern the spirit, they simply condemn everything not aligning with cessationist teaching. Ok fine, but again this is where you begin to see they will have no experience or wisdom in the matters of prophecy...forth-telling or foretelling anything because it has already been refused and Ichabod given a front seat among the pastors chairs.

How can you learn anything in such a format? You don't, all you do is condemn anything that is doctrinally variant that's it.


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Marvin

 2018/8/6 16:07Profile
TakeUptheCross
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Joined: 2016/8/10
Posts: 242
Germany

 Re:

Much food for thought! Praise the Lord!

Quote:
I have heard people, even well meaning people, give "prophesies" that I knew immediately were from their flesh and not the Spirit of God. I have also experienced the true many, many times.



I do not have much experience in this area. Follow-up question: shall I expect a certain way of which prophecy is to be delivered? I've thought almost all of my life that when somebody is prophecying, he will just say something in a normal language like I read the prophets in OT: "Thus saith the Lord..."

Yet I was before few months in a meeting where prophecies came to several people and the way of delivering it was the following: the brother went to the person for whom he had a word and then shared it in normal language, interrupted by praying/speaking in tongues.

Now this was the really first time to witness something like that. I believe it was a true prophecy, but just don't understand the part of praying or speaking in tongues. A brother told me this could be interpretation of tongues?

Can anyone give me godly counsel on that? Travis, Marvin - have you experienced or heard of this?

 2018/8/6 18:41Profile
amajesticone
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Joined: 2016/3/10
Posts: 42
Massachusetts

 Re:

Marvin wrote:

"... because I am a living demonstration their teaching is in error."

Isn't this what happened in the life of our Lord; He was the LIVING demonstration of the Word resulting in the exposure of erroneous teaching.
Living proof.

Very impacted,

Mary


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Mary

 2018/8/6 18:41Profile





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