| Re: |
There have been some good answers given, let me point to someone who can be really helpful in teaching on the subject.
Art Katz: He has many sermons on this website, I have found his sermons to be excellent, way beyond the milk level you will read or listen to from others.
Listen to his series on the prophetic, the false prophets, apostolicity, apostolic foundations etc.
If you listen to a cessationist teach you about the prophetic, it's similar to listing to a man tell about colors but he is blind. He has only theory, no real experience and the revelation that comes from it.
If you listen to charismatic loon teach you about the prophetic you will come away with an understanding of prophets that has no resemblance to the prophetic in old or new covenants.
In my opinion Art Katz avoids the ditches and demonstrates a rare but divine understanding of the prophetic. Give him a listen.
| 2018/8/3 20:52||Profile|
| Re: |
Dspks: A cessationist cannot tell you we have arrived at anything.
1. because they do not believe in the prophetic, therefore they will not ask or listen for God to speak to them by the prophetic. In short they stop their ears to the prophetic.
2. Because their eschatology has them pretending to arrive at a perfection that none of them enjoy, nor in all their study or teaching or ministry can show they are beyond 'seeing through a glass darkly'.
3. Because in tossing out the gifts of God, they presume the word of God is enough, but in using the scripture to invalidate the gifts of God, they in fact deny the word of God they claim to stick to. So, while about 3 chapters of 1 Corinthians are virtually useless to them and must necessarily be so, they will contradict themselves and tell you to obey the word of God precisely...which when you do in seeking the best gifts, praying to prophecy and edify the Church, or speak in tongues or interpret or lay hands on for healing or deliverance...they find ways to call it false, a sham. They are a walking contradiction to themselves and a hindrance to the Church at large.
Any counsel you get from them is mixed with the old rationalism of the past. What they cannot rationalize, they deny is God.
If it turns out they were right about some situation they glory in discerning, but when it turns out true, they ignore or ridicule the event.
| 2018/8/3 21:05||Profile|
| Re: |
“Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.” (1 Corinthians 14:1)
“A person who speaks in tongues is strengthened personally, but one who speaks a word of prophecy strengthens the entire church.”
Believers have misused the gift of prophesy, just as the gift of tongues has been abused, and the Apostle Paul addressed the church at Corinth concerning this. Yet the Apostle said to desire and seek for spiritual gifts, and the primary gift that we should seek is prophesy that the church would be built up.
Many times in my life I have received a prophetic word that was a confirmation to me.
We don’t blindly receive a prophesy, but we judge it, asking God for discernment.
There is a difference between the gift of prophesy in which every Spirit filled believer can operate in, and the office of a prophet, which is included in the fivefold ministry along with Apostles, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers. These ministry gifts have been given to bring the saints into full maturity. None of us have arrived yet.
“For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.” (1 Corinthians 14:31)
| 2018/8/3 21:06||Profile|
| Re: |
I found this explaination to be concise:
"Paul says the church is “built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets” (Eph. 2:20). I conclude that all we need to know for salvation and sanctification has been given to us through the teaching of the apostles and prophets, and that this teaching is now found in the Scriptures. Now that God has spoken in the last days through his Son (Heb. 1:2), we don't need further words from him to explain what Jesus Christ has accomplished in his ministry, death, and resurrection. Instead, we are “to contend for the faith that was delivered to the saints once for all” through the apostles and prophets (Jude 3)." Thomas Schreiner
| 2018/8/4 10:59||Profile|
| Re: |
I conclude that all we need to know for salvation and sanctification has been given to us through the teaching of the apostles and prophets, and that this teaching is now found in the Scriptures
This kind of teaching views the scriptures as nothing more than a manual book and the Christian Life as nothing more than following the 1-2-3 steps of the manual book.
Kind of like a book on car mechanics written by the car manufacturer who no longer lives. If something went wrong with the car, all we have to do is read the manual and follow the steps. No power needed, just head knowledge.
But where do you find this concept taught in the Bible? Nowhere.
This is salvation by works, sanctification by works, evangelization by works, etc..
No Holy Spirit leading or empowering is necessary. Just follow the Bible formula (partially off course).
But if we do that, are we not violating the very foundation of teaching and practice of the prophets and apostles and the Lord Jesus himself the foundation corner Stone who we falsely claim to be built upon.
| 2018/8/4 13:56||Profile|
| Re: dspks|
"But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." v.10
Is 'that which is perfect' already come? No. What do we have nowadays that is more than in apostle's days? Would not the apostle themselves tell us: "We need the gifts of the Spirit only as long as we write the epistles and establish the Church in several places. From then on, people will no longer need these. They will have all they need in the Bible!"
Right after "follow after charity", is written "desire spiritual gifts".
See also Ephesians:
"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ"
Is this work over? If we are to have biblically teachers and pastors, and evangelist, so then also prophets and apostles. That is what we can conclude from the Ephesians 4 and 1 Cor 12, also Romans 12:6-8.
"And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."
God set the church so. This is what He has given us, this is his order, his way of building up His church. I do believe with you that the church is built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. And since God has through them revealed how the church functions as a body, I believe it remains the same even today. No other foundation can be laid.
| 2018/8/4 15:51||Profile|
| Re: |
We are not talking about predictive prophecies here, at least I am not. We are talking about a prophetic forthtelling either in a group or one on one setting.
Could you please explain? I am sorry but I do not understand the difference between "predictive prophecy" and "prophetic forthtelling".
| 2018/8/4 15:53||Profile|
| Re: |
//Could you please explain? I am sorry but I do not understand the difference between "predictive prophecy" and "prophetic forthtelling".//
Some people when they hear the word "prophecy" or "prophetic" think only of someone predicting what will happen, like the OT prophets.
I pay very little attention when someone starts prophesying in this manner because I believe it is questionable at best.
When I think of someone who is "prophetic" I think of men like Art Katz (as mentioned by Marvin) or Leonard Ravenhill. I have known a few people personally who I would call "prophetic."
Someone who speaks with authority and unction. They receive a timely word from the Lord and speak it forth (forthtelling).
I believe that any believer who is walking with the Spirit can give a prophetic word, if they have the courage to do so. Sometimes it takes courage because the word may not make sense until it is spoken.
I heard a story and in fact it is in a compilation called "Strong Fire Burn" which you can listen to on YouTube. https://youtu.be/8BcfXWqkYa8
Anyway this girl was going to be commissioned to go out into the mission field by the elders of her church. Another visiting minister was in attendance and when they were getting ready to pray for her and commission her this minister got a word from the Lord: "I hate mommies and daddies"-- and he knew the Lord was telling him to speak this out to this girl. Of course he felt very awkward giving a word like that at this time under this circumstance. But the Lord kept pushing him to speak it out to this girl so he did: "The Lord wants you to know that he hates mommies and daddies." When he spoke it out, the girl had a strong reaction and went into a fit and a rage. The girl then revealed that when she was little, she was molested by family members who called the acts of incest "mommies and daddies." She had been living with the guilt of this all these years but because of the prophetic word the elders could pray for her and she could be healed of those old wounds in her spirit.
That is an example of what I am talking about.
ADD: Another example is from Duncan Campbell's account of the Hebrides Revival- on this one occasion if I remember right some men were gathered in a barn to pray and this teenager named Donald McPhail began praying Ps. 24:
"Who may ascend into the hill of the Lord?
Or who may stand in His holy place?
He who has clean hands and a pure heart,
Who has not lifted up his soul to an idol,
Nor sworn deceitfully."
And when he did this the Holy Spirit fell. That's all it took, but this young man was sensitive to what the Lord wanted to be prayed at that moment and obeyed.
| 2018/8/4 16:28||Profile|
| Re: |
what then do you make of predictive prophecy like this example in the book of acts.
You don't think the church need this today?
"27 And in these days prophets came from Jerusalem to Antioch. 28 Then one of them, named Agabus, stood up and showed by the Spirit that there was going to be a great famine throughout all the world, which also happened in the days of Claudius Caesar. 29 Then the disciples, each according to his ability, determined to send relief to the brethren dwelling in Judea. 30 This they also did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul."
And what about predictive prophecy that authenticate what you call the " forth telling" prophecy like this example here.
"15 Then the prophet Jeremiah said to Hananiah the prophet, “Hear now, Hananiah, the Lord has not sent you, but you make this people trust in a lie. 16 Therefore thus says the Lord: ‘Behold, I will cast you from the face of the earth. This year you shall die, because you have taught rebellion against the Lord." 17 So Hananiah the prophet died the same year in the seventh month.
| 2018/8/4 16:59||Profile|
| Re: |
I definitely believe OT prophets predicted but that was their function.
And I did not say a valid predictive prophecy never occurs but I would think they are exceedingly rare. I have never heard one personally that did not raise red flags.
| 2018/8/4 17:54||Profile|