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 Tribulation believers not indwelt by the Spirit and not part of the Church?

Holy Spirit To Not Indwell Tribulation Believers?

docs - I don't adhere to the teachings below. I just believe that many that advocate the pre-trib view of eschatology are not aware that teachings and doctrines such as seen below are currently are part of the pre-trib view of eschatology. Many more can be cited that just those below. Since we don't have the ability to post things in bold or italics I used capitals to make my point. Civil comments welcome. Thank you. These are serious issues in my opinion that have significance relevance regarding the very nature of salvation itself and to what constitutes the foundational nature and make up of God's true Church.

1) J. Dwight Pentecost - from "Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology", 1958.

“With the identification of the Holy Spirit as the restrainer of II Thess 2:7 comes the persistent allegation by the opponents of this view that says the Holy Spirit must cease to operate in the world during the tribulation because He is no longer indwelling the body of Christ as His temple. Nothing could be further from the truth. It must be noted that the Holy Spirit did not undertake an indwelling ministry to every believer in the Old Testament, yet the Lord addressing one under that old economy indicates clearly that salvation was by the operation of the Holy Spirit (John 3:5-6). Apart from this indwelling ministry Old Testament saints were said to be saved by the Holy Spirit, even though He did not indwell the believer as a temple. So, in the tribulation period, the Holy Spirit, who is omnipresent, will do the work of regeneration as He did when God was previously dealing with Israel, but WITHOUT AN INDWELLING MINISTRY. The present-day indwelling is related to empowerment, to union of believer with believer because of their relation to the Temple of God, but the indwelling is entirely distinct and separated from the work of the Spirit in regeneration. Thus, it should be clearly seen that even though THE SPIRIT IS NOT INDWELLING IN THE TRIBULATION, He may still be operative in regeneration."

2) John F. Walvoord - from "The Rapture Question," 1979.

"It should also be evident that if the Spirit of God characteristically indwells the church as well as the individual saint in this age, the removal of the Spirit would involve a dispensational change and the removal of the church as well. While the Spirit will work in the tribulation period, HE WILL FOLLOW THE PATTERN OF THE PERIOD BEFORE PENTECOST RATHER THAN THIS PRESENT AGE OF GRACE. The Spirit of God will return to heaven after accomplishing His earthly work, much as the Lord Jesus Christ returned to heaven after completing His earthly work. In both cases, the work of the Second Person and the Third Person continues, but IN A DIFFERENT SETTING AND IN A DIFFERENT WAY."

3) John Walvoord – from "The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation" - p128

“But neither Gundry nor anyone else can prove that THE BAPTIZING WORK OF THE SPIRIT THAT FORMS THE CHURCH IS EVER SEEN IN THE TRIBULATION. That the Spirit works in the tribulation all agree. THAT THE SPIRIT INDWELLS ALL BELIEVERS IS NOWHERE TAUGHT.

4) Hal Lindsey - from "The Rapture", Bantam Books, p 138)

The Holy Spirit will revert back to do the "work as He did in the Old Testament."

"The Holy Spirit will not be gone from the world, BUT HIS UNIQUE MINISTRIES IN, THROUGH AND FOR THE BELIEVER WILL BE REMOVED WITH THE CHURCH."

"...THE UNIQUE CHURCH ECONOMY MINISTRIES OF INDWELLING, BAPTIZING, SEALING, GIFTING AND FILLING OF EVERY BELIEVER WILL BE REMOVED WITH THE CHURCH. This is consistent with all that is revealed of the average Tribulation believer's level of spiritual insight, knowledge and maturity."

5) John Hagee - from "The Battle For Jerusalem", p 228

"God will be faithful to His covenant people. The 144,000 Jews who are sealed as witnesses immediately after the Rapture will be granted divine protection so that they may be preserved during the time of Tribulation. God's judgment and wrath will be evident, yes, but so will His mercy. Once the church has been removed, God will act to bring the nation of Israel to faith in Him. THE HOLY SPIRIT, WHILE NOT INDWELLING BELIEVERS AS HE DID IN THE CHURCH AGE,The Holy Spirit, while not indwelling believers as He did in the church age, will move to convict and enlighten. The Jews will see miraculous signs of God's work..."

6) Dr. Thomas Ice - from "The Holy Spirit and the Tribulation"

One of the most compelling, yet often misunderstood, arguments for pretribulationism relates to the Holy Spirit's role to the church and the tribulation period. Most holding to the pre-trib position believe that 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 refers to the restraining ministry of the Holy Spirit through the agency of the Church. Thus, when the church is raptured before the tribulation, that ministry of the Holy Spirit will be removed as well. If this interpretation is correct, then it is a strong argument for pretribulationism.

The Restrainer

Second Thessalonians 2:1-12 discusses a man of lawlessness being held back until a later time. Interpreting the restrainer of evil (2:6) as the indwelling ministry of the Holy Spirit at work through the body of Christ during the current Church Age, supports pretribulationism. Since the lawless one (the beast or Antichrist) cannot be revealed until the Restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is taken away (2:7-8), the tribulation, (called the day of the Lord in this passage), cannot occur until after the church is removed. Of all the rapture positions, only the pre-trib position can be harmonized when we understand that the Restrainer is referring to the Holy Spirit.

I believe the correct interpretation of this passage understands the restrainer to refer to the Holy Spirit as He functions during the present church age through the baptism of the Holy Spirit and indwelling of believers. These are ministries that are unique to the Church Age. Both the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the indwelling ministry of the Holy Spirit began on the Day of Pentecost as Acts 2 describes. Therefore, these ministries of the Holy Spirit were not active in this way before the birth of the Church.

The cryptic reference to the Holy Spirit's present work in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 explains the unusual grammar employed in the passage. In verse six "the restrainer" is in the neuter gender (to katchon) while in verse seven "the Restrainer" is masculine (o katechn). The significance of such grammar and how it relates to the Holy Spirit and the rapture is explained by Dr. Robert Thomas below.

Key to the above scenario is whether the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer. After surveying various interpretations of the passage he concludes:

To one familiar with the Lord Jesus Upper Room Discourse, as Paul undoubtedly was, fluctuation between neuter and masculine recalls how the Holy Spirit is spoken of. Either gender is appropriate, depending on whether the speaker (or writer) thinks of natural agreement (masc. because of the Spirit's personality) or grammatical (neuter because of the noun pneuma; see John 14:26; 15:26; 16:13, 14) . . . This identification of the restrainer with deep roots in church history . . . is most appealing. THE SPECIAL PRESENCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AS THE INDWELLER OF SAINTS WILL TERMINATE ABRUPTLY AT THE PAROUSIA AS IT BEGAN ABRUPTLY AT PENTECOST. Once the body of Christ has been caught away to heaven, THE SPIRIT'S MINISTRY WILL REVERT BACK TO WHAT HE DID FOR BELIEVERS DURING THE OT PERIOD. His function of restraining evil through the body of Christ (John 16:7-11; 1 John 4:4) will cease similarly to the way he terminated his striving in the days of Noah (Gen. 6:3). At that point the reins will be removed from lawlessness and the Satanically inspired rebellion will begin. It appears that to katechon (what is holding back) was well known at Thessalonica as a title for the Holy Spirit on whom the readers had come to depend in their personal attempts to combat lawlessness (1 Thess. 1:6; 4:8; 5:19; 2 Thess. 2:13).

The Church Age

The Church began on the Day of Pentecost with a visitation of the Holy Spirit as recorded in Acts 2. The Church ends at the rapture with the translation of living saints and the resurrection of those who have died in Christ (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Until the rapture, God is gathering out from the Gentiles a people for His name (Acts 15:14) and combining them with the elect remnant of Israel (Rom. 11:5; Eph. 2:11–22) into one new body called the Church (Eph. 2:11–3:13; Col. 1:24–27). THIS GREAT TASK IS ACCOMPLISHED BY A UNIQUE MINISTRY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT ONLY DURING THE CHURCH AGE CALLED THE BAPTIDSM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 12:13, For by one Spirit were we all [Jewish and Gentile Believers] baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. Such a work of the Holy Spirit is only for the Church—the Body of Christ. Therefore, it is not surprising that since the tribulation cannot start until after the Church is completed and taken to heaven in the rapture that the man of lawlessness is restrained through the presence of the Holy Spirit on earth indwelling Church Age Believers. This current work of the Holy Spirit is unique to the church. Dr. John Walvoord explains:
We search the prophetic Scriptures in vain for any reference to baptism of the Spirit except in regard to the church, the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13). WHILE, THEREFORE, THE SPIRIT CONTINUES A MINISTRY IN THE WORLD IN THE TRIBULATION, THERE IS NO LONGER A CORPORATE BODY OF BELIEVERS KNIT INTO ONE LIVING ORGANISM. There is rather a return to national distinctions and fulfillment of national promises in preparation for the millennium.

Conclusion

Those who do not hold to pretribulationism often mischaracterize our view of the Holy Spirit in the tribulation. They often say that pretribulationists do not believe that the Holy Spirit will be present during the tribulation. This is not what we are saying! We do believe that the Holy Spirit will be present and active during the tribulation. WE DO BELIEVE THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL NOT BE CARRYING OUT HIS UNIQUE MINISTRY RELATED TO THE CHURCH SINCE THE COMPPLETED BODY OF CHRIST WILL BE IN HEAVEN. Further, we are saying that the Holy Spirit will be present in His transdispensational ministry of bringing the elect of the tribulation to faith in Christ, EVEN THOUGH THEY WILL NOT BE PART OF THE BODY OF CHRIST-THE CHURCH. The Holy Spirit will also aid Tribulation Believers as they live holy lives unto the Lord. The Holy Spirit will also function to seal and protect the 144,000 Jewish witnesses for their great evangelistic ministry as noted in Revelation 7 and 14 and the two witnesses of Revelation 11.
The Rapture could very well be the greatest evangelistic tool in human history. When millions of people disappear from the face of the earth in a split second of time, all kinds of theories and explanations will surface. But many will remember the warnings of friends and loved ones about the truth of the Rapture. In a moment of time, they will realize what has happened. They have been left behind. God will use this mind-numbing realization to bring them to faith in His Son. The Holy Spirit will be active, as He always has throughout history, to bring the elect to salvation in Christ.

Even though pretribulationists believe that many unique aspects of the current work of the Holy Spirit will cease at the rapture, it is not correct to say that we believe the Holy Spirit will not be present during the tribulation. Just as the Holy Spirit will engage in some ministries during the tribulation, relating to the 144,000 witnesses and the two witnesses, that are not occurring during the current church age, SO THERE WILL CEASE CERTAIN MINISTRIES UNIQUE TO TE CHURCH which will enable the man of sin to come onto the stage of history. Maranatha!

7) End time Blogspot - 2010

The Church Age is full of grace and mercy, and that is thanks to the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit. If you are praying for someone to come to repentance of their sins and to faith in the Resurrected Jesus, pray that they do so now. Don't say "well, at least during the Tribulation they will SEE God's hand at work and come to believe, even though it will be terrible." THE SPIRIT WILL NOT BE THERE TO HELP THEM AS AN INDWELLING MINISTRY, hearts will be hardening daily, and even if they do come to faith, they are at risk of losing it, like Saul did.

8) Dr. Thomas Ice - from "The Great Tribulation. What is its Purpose. When will it occur? What is Its Purpose?"

"Further, we are saying that the Holy Spirit will be present in His transdispensational ministry of bringing the elect of the tribulation to faith in Christ, EVEN THOUGH THEY WILLL NOT BE PART OF THE BODY OF CHRIST - THE CHURCH. The Holy Spirit will also aid tribulation believers as they live holy lives unto the Lord."

9) John Nelson Darby - from "The Hope of the Church of God" - p 106.

"The Jewish nation is to never enter the Church."

10) Tim F. LaHaye, Thomas Ice - from "Charting the End Times"

"Therefore, the Church has no earthly prophetic destiny beyond the Rapture."



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David Winter

 2018/6/29 12:10Profile
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Hemel Hempstead

 Re: Holy Spirit to not indwell Great Tribulation believers?

I am glad you have done your research that you are not simply presenting your own opinion!
Can I ask which form of Dispensational Theology do you believe in ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalist_theology#Types
"Classical dispensationalism

Early dispensational writers such as Darby and Chafer are referred to as classical dispensationalists. This view differs from today's traditional or "revised" dispensationalists. The early Scofield Bible (but not the Revised Scofield Bible) reflects a classical dispensational view. Classical dispensationalists are a small minority
today, and Miles Stanford is one writer who represents this point of view. Also known as Pauline dispensationalism, they hold to an Acts 2 start for the church and practice water baptism and the Lord's Supper. Many of the peculiar doctrines taught by this position have also been taught in the Mid-Acts camp (hyperdispensationalism) which has even used the 'Pauline Dispensationalism' moniker to describe their doctrine. Yet hyperdispensationalists today have not necessarily maintained these teachings due to no central authority and a desire to be faithful to Scripture. Meanwhile, Acts 2 Pauline Dispensationalism in some camps (Peter Ruckman, Douglas Stauffer, William Grady) have garnered a reputation of being as extreme as the hyperdispensationalists and ultradispensationalists in making sharp distinctions between the earthly/prophetic program for Israel and the heavenly/mystery program for the church, as well as, teaching different ways of salvation in different dispensations.[3]
Traditional dispensationalism

This section does not cite any sources. Please help improve this section by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (April 2018) (Learn how and when to remove this template message)

The traditional view is the majority view for dispensationalists today. John Walvoord and Charles Ryrie are two traditional dispensational authors. The Revised Scofield Bible of the 1960s also reflects a traditional dispensational view, which is why traditional dispensationalists are sometimes called "Revised" dispensationalists.
Progressive dispensationalism
Main article: Progressive dispensationalism

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In the late 1980s a number of dispensational scholars—in particular Craig A. Blaising, Darrell L. Bock, and Robert L. Saucy—proposed a significant new position developed from within dispensationalism. The major difference between traditional and progressive dispensationalism is in how each views the relationship of the present dispensation to the past and future dispensations.

Traditional dispensationalists perceive the present age of grace to be a parenthesis or "intercalation" with relation to past and future dispensations. In general that means God's plans as revealed in the past dispensations have been "put on hold" until after the rapture. Progressive dispensationalists however hold that this present dispensation is a key link between past dispensations and the future dispensations. In general that means God's plans have continued in this present dispensation, marking it as a crucial link between past and future dispensations and not a parenthesis. This idea of a key link or progression between dispensations has resulted in the label progressive dispensationalism.

Progressive dispensationalism holds much in common with traditional dispensationalism, including a distinction between Israel and the Church, a future rapture, a 7-year tribulation, and the rule of Christ over the earth centered in Jerusalem during the millennial kingdom.

Both progressive and traditional dispensationalists hold to a clear distinction between Israel and the Church. In short, God has provided the nation of Israel with specific promises such as possession of the land, promises which will be fulfilled in the future. Both Progressive and traditional dispensationalists do recognize some "membership" overlap between the Israel and the Church: Jewish Christians such Paul, Peter, and John are all Jewish (of Israel) and Christian (members of the church). This is in contrast to ultradispensationalists who see the Church and Israel as mutually exclusive.

Both progressive and traditional dispensationalists hold to a distinctly "dispensational" end-time view with a pretribulation rapture and a millennial kingdom with Jesus physically reigning from Jerusalem. This common view with traditional dispensationalism is also what clearly distinguishes progressive dispensationalism from historical premillennialism.

The reasons for progressives holding to a progression of dispensations as opposed to a parenthesis is related to: 1) the relationship between the covenants, and 2) hermeneutics."

------------------------------------
The reason I am asking



1)J. Dwight Pentecost - from "Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology", 1958.
“With the identification of the Holy Spirit as the restrainer of II Thess 2:7 comes the persistent allegation by the opponents of this view that says the Holy Spirit must cease to operate in the world during the tribulation because He is no longer indwelling the body of Christ as
His temple

--------------------------------------

I have a problem as nowhere in the passage does it say the restrainer in the passage of 2 Thessalonians 2:7

The greek word is 2722. κατέχω (katechó)
http://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_2722.htm

I have studied the different perspectives on who the restrainer as some say his as there is noone to exacltly determine that this is the holy spirit.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/related-topics/who-is-the-restrainer.html

My problem is that if you say that the church is gone. It causes many problems theologically even in the same passage!

Do you believe that God has a wife, Israel and that Jesus wife is the Church and then I don't know who's wife is the Tribulational Saints !!! As that is what John Walvord believes. Do you believe that is only possible to be saved through Jesus even the Jews and that there is only one gospel.

I find it hard to clarify that the meaning of the word restrainer is the holy spirit as I have been trying to look at any early church fathers commentaries on this subject.

Do you believe in one Gospel.

The rapture could be the greatest lie in history like the group that waited for Jesus return in the early 18th century as the Antichrist could fake it.

2 Thessalonians
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

John 16 English Standard Version (ESV)

“I did not say these things to you from the beginning, because I was with you. 5 But now I am going to him who sent me, and none of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; 10 concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; 11 concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

If the whole point of the holy spirit is to glorify christ and save sinners. What parts of the holy spirit will be removed in the Great Tribulation?


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Dominic Shiells

 2018/6/29 12:49Profile
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 Re:

Regarding the three forms of dispensationalism you gave a link to.

Because of their pre-trib rapture view (common to all) and their view that God has a separate plan for Israel and the Church (common to all) which amounts to God having two plans for two different groups of believing people and their view that the tribulation believers are not to be part of the church indwelt by the Spirit (common to all) I find myself not believing in any form of the dispensationalism views that you provided a link to.

I dwell in a sort of middle ground between dispensationalism and Reformed or covenant theology and what I consider as its replacement emphasis. I also realize my use of the word replacement in regard to the Reformed is controversial in itself and I don't mean it in a derogatory way like many use the derogatory term "dispy." The Reformed faith clearly and specifically helped me enormously to understand my faith (the 5 solas - the difference between imputed and infused righteousness etc.). I am forever grateful for that. If you want to learn something regarding your faith read Reformed studies. Yet I still find myself in disagreement with the overall Reformed view of eschatology and its allegorical (is that the right word?) interpretation of many of the prophetic scriptures regarding Israel and its continued relevance, which, in spite of what I see as its many serious errors, dispensationalism has not done. So I guess I'm in kind of a middle ground between the two.

Thank you.


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David Winter

 2018/6/29 13:15Profile
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Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1825
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

Because of their pre-trib rapture view (common to all) and their view that God has a separate plan for Israel and the Church (common to all) and their view that the tribulation believers are not to be part of the church indwelt by the Spirit(common to all) I find myself not believing in any form of the dispensationalism that you provided a link to.

Progressive-Dispensationalism
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Progressive-Dispensationalism-Craig-Blaising-ebook/dp/B00B85AI6C/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1530293386&sr=8-2&keywords=progressive+dispensationalism

Darrel Bock lays out some of the problems with the different views in his book.

I just want to know how many epochs you believe in, it would bring alot more clarity to the question if I knew specifically what view you held to.

The problem is that your view sounds like Classical Dispensational View and there are multiple problems with that biblically.

It looks like Thomas Ice is a classical dispensationalist! and I think Dwight Pentecost is. Hal Lindsey is.

https://dispensationalpublishing.com/dispensational-discourse-dr-thomas-ice/

There is a massive difference on how they view Israel as there are


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Dominic Shiells

 2018/6/29 13:32Profile





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