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 Re:

I mentioned on a prior thread that there are Old Testament types which point to a pre-trib Rapture: Noah & his family being 'raptured' in the ark just before the rains destroy the rest of humanity; Lot & his family being taken out of Sodom & Gomorrah by angels just before the fire of God's judgment falls upon those places; and Moses & the Israelites coming out of Egypt & across the Red Sea by a miraculous passage which closed upon & destroyed the Egyptian army which tried to follow them.

I also mentioned that both Enoch & Elijah were caught up to meet the Lord in the Old Testament.

 2018/7/3 20:53
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re:

Yes you have mentioned those things but I was referring to passages such as Isaiah 25:6-8 and the context it appears in. And Hosea 13:14. Both passages are quoted by Paul in I Cor 15:51-55.

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?”

Death is swallowed up in victory – from Isaiah 25:6-8:

6 The Lord of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain; a banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow,
And refined, aged wine.

7 And on this mountain He will SWALLOW UP THE COVERING ( death) which is over all peoples, even the veil which is stretched over all nations.

8 He will SWALLOW UP DEATH FOR ALL TIME,
And the Lord God will wipe tears away from all faces,
And He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth; for the Lord has spoken.

This passage from Isaiah 25 is the part of Isaiah which commentators refer to as the “mini-apocalypse” which covers Isaiah chapters 24-27. These chapters cover in an encapsulated mini form the final desolations of the earth that will occur leading up to the Day of the Lord and Israel's final deliverance and restoration. The resurrection of the dead is seen in these chapters.

Ch 24 speaks of the Day of the Lord and the earth wide desolations that will take place

Ch 25 is a song of praise to God that God has triumphed and death has been vanquished – verse 7-8

Ch 26 is a song of thankfulness an post-tribulational salvation and deliverance

Ch 27 speaks of the restoration of Israel

Note that 26:19 also speaks of resurrection, even Isaiah's own personal bodily resurrection.

19 – Your dead shall live; Together with my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in the dust; For your dew is like the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out her dead.

The point I hope to make is that this is the context of the verse Paul speaks of in I Cor 15:54 – Then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory “ - (from Isaiah 25:8-9).

Death being vanquished is part of Israel's final deliverance. It was part of the blessed Messianic hope that the Jewish nation hoped to obtain to. And it comes after the tribulation portrayed in Isaiah ch 24. It doesn't come seven years or so before the end of the age. By becoming part of a Messianic covenant made with Israel we are grafted into them and into their hope. When the last trumpet occurs Israel's final tribulational affliction is lifted and they are delivered from all their enemies and will forever lie down in safety from their oppressors. Pre-trib advocates seldom if at all make the connection between I Cor 15:54 and Isaiah 25:8. Isaiah 25:8 is post-tribulational so why would Paul snatch it out of its proper context in I Cor 15:54. The answer is he didn't – the resurrection of Israel is post-tribulational and Paul is using it to describe the resurrection and glorification of all Christian believers – We shall ALL shall be changed. Therefore, there is very clear evidence that the resurrection of post-tribulation Israel and the Christian church is after Isaiah ch 24. At the end of the age.

Hose 13:14 speaks for itself :

14 I will ransom them from the powe rof Sheol; I will redeem them from death. O death, where are your thorns? O Sheol, where is your sting?

Paul associates this verse with the resurrection and glorification of the Christian church – I Cor 15:55. And if Isaiah's context is clear Israel cannot be delivered before this. There is nothing written about the glorification of the Christian church seven years before the final deliverance of Israel at the end of the age. The Church and Israel's deliverance and resurrection coincide.

Isaiah 25:6-8
Isaiah 26:19
Hosea 13:14
I Cor 15:54-55
All post-tribulational







_________________
David Winter

 2018/7/4 17:42Profile









 Re:

Death being swallowed up in victory does not vouch for (or deny) a Rapture of any kind, let alone a time frame in regards to the Tribulation. Revelation 20:14 speaks of death (and hell) being cast into the lake of fire AFTER the millennial reign of Christ on earth----well after the Tribulation & Second Coming.

One could also rightly asset that death was swallowed up in victory the moment our Lord Jesus rose from the dead, having paid our sin debt at Calvary's cross.

 2018/7/4 19:19
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re:

The context of these OT passages is during the final throes of Israel and the earth during the tribulation. What do you think Isaiah ch 24 describes? 24:23 is describing the same signs as Mathew 24:29. Then after this comes death being swallowed up in 25:6-8. This context cannot be missed. After the events of Isaiah 24 is when death is swallowed up - at the time of Israel's final deliverance. Paul went here and lifted his verses in I Cor 15 out of this context. Israel is not delivered seven years before the end of the age. It's been my experience that pre-trib teachers seldom if ever refer to these verses and their proper context and timing when it was Paul himseolf who went to these verses in I Cor 15.

Daniel's own resurrection is prophesied to be at the END of the age.

But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days. (Daniel 12:13)


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David Winter

 2018/7/4 20:06Profile









 Re:

"Let God be true & every man a liar."

The scribes & Pharisees searched the Scriptures diligently, & yet they couldn't recognize the Messiah standing before them.

You started this thread to discuss Hunt. Now you venture into the realm of "endless debates which engender strife"...but so do so many on this forum with YEARS of verbiage which did not profit the 'hearers' (readers would be a more apt term).

I'm so glad you have it all figured out.

By the way, how WILL you & Dom survive the Tribulation? But I'm sure you have that all figured out, too.

Adios.

 2018/7/4 20:54
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re:

Well bro,

I just thought we were sort of swapping ideas and views. The timing of the rapture is central and tantamount to accepting or not accepting some of the views Hunt and others advocate. I was just trying to share some of the things I believe I have learned by studying prophecy and things and last here from Isaiah 24-27 coupled with I Cor 15 etc. At one point you mentioned you were curious as to what my answers would be to Hunt etc. I was planning on answering his other points also as soon as I could. I was thinking of that today even. Your answers have been altogether civil. I'm sorry if I have offended in any way or maybe posted in a wrong manner. I was looking forward to discussing Isaiah 24-27 but it's okay if we stop for now.

Thank you for your time and your comments.


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David Winter

 2018/7/4 21:12Profile
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Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 2359
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

It is important to a view that is based in scripture

Matthew 5:17-20 American Standard Version (ASV)
17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.

We cannot base doctrine of things such as typology as there are many cults that use such methods

Most pre tribulation arguments tend to use

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

But nowhere in this passage does it state that the rapture is before the tribulation in Thessalonians 5 it actually a says it is the day of the lord which is after the tribulation

It is not a matter of whether something is personal preference or not. There are alot of things in scripture I do not like but that does not make them any less true.

Justifying a doctrine on personal preference is absurd.

Acts 17:11
11 Now the people here were of nobler character than the ones in Thessalonica; they eagerly welcomed the message, checking the Tanakh every day to see if the things Sha'ul was saying were true.

In Beria where the berian call gets it name they tested everything they tested Paul's views by the old testament , a view like the pre tribulation rapture is not above reproach to be tested, to me it does not have enough scriptural basis to state that it is after the tribulation as nowhere in scripture does it state that the pretribulation rapture is before the tribulation , if you want to be berean like David hunt, do your homework and study to show they self approved


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Dominic Shiells

 2018/7/5 5:57Profile





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