SermonIndex Audio Sermons
SermonIndex - Promoting Revival to this Generation
Give To SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : General Topics : I dont know how I would survive the Tribulation

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 Next Page )
PosterThread
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re:

/David (Docs), the apostle Paul wrote to the church of Thessalonica, "And we who are alive & remain will be caught up together to meet Him in the air." Paul allowed that the Rapture could happen in his lifetime. It is the blessed hope. We are to purify ourselves with this hope./

I understand that fully. The question is since everyone believes in a rapture when does it occur? The timing of the last trumpet (I Cor 15:51-52) settles it for me. That is when saints living and dead are glorified. The pre-trib view provides no adequate answer for how there can be a last trumpet at which all saints living and dead are raised and glorified before the tribulation only to be followed by another trumpet at the end of the tribulation seven or so years later at Christ's second coming. Matthew 24;29-31 clearly states that after the tribulation of those days (verse 29) there will be another trumpet at the second coming (verse 31) So how can a trumpet seven years earlier be the last trumpet at which saints are changed when there is still another trumpet to come at the second coming. What does last mean? There cannot be two last trumpets.

/Saints, whether Jew or Gentile, during the Tribulation are still saints./

Not according to John Darby, Dwight Pentecost, Chafer, Hal Lindsay, John Hagee and many other leading advocates for a pre-trib rapture. They taught and still teach that no one can become a saint, a member of the church, after a pre-trib rapture.

Quoting Darby,

"The Jewish nation is never to enter the Church." (J. N. Darby - from "The Hope of the Church of God." - page 106)

And they teach that those saved during the tribulation will not be indwelled by the Holy Spirit yet they fail to explain how one can be saved, born again and regenerated without the indwelling Holy Spirit. Many lay people who follow the pre-trib view are not aware of this.


_________________
David Winter

 2018/6/20 9:24Profile
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re:

/Therefore, a=c. In other words, Jerusalem surrounded by the pagan gentile Roman army IS the abomination of desolation./

The abomination is clearly portrayed as being done by a single person - a He and not an army (II Thess 2:3-4 compared with Daniel 11:36). When this personage, this He, performs the desolation and exalts himself above every god then he will unleash his wrath upon Israel and the church of God. His coalition of forces will descend upon Israel (Ezekiel 38) and persecution against the Jewish nation and the church will bring a unprecedented time of trouble such as never has been seen. The abomination of desolation will result in the final desolations of Jerusalem as it is surrounded by the hostile armies of the man of sin.


_________________
David Winter

 2018/6/20 10:09Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Thanks David but you have not addressed the texts themselves. How do you explain the Mathew and Luke texts? It seems clear that the abomination that caused desolation was the pagan Roman armies.

PS. As an aside, Titus did set up a pagan statue in the temple when he conquered Jerusalem.


_________________
Todd

 2018/6/20 10:36Profile
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re:

The abomination of desolation will result in the final desolations of Jerusalem as it is surrounded by the hostile armies of the man of sin. Luke's passage speaks of the desolations of Jerusalem but they were to occur after the abomination of desolation.

That was my explanation which seems pretty clear. The long help Jewish prophetic expectation was that when their final eschatological enemy raised himself above all gods (Daniel 11:36) that he would unleash a final assault on Jerusalem and Jerusalem would experience a final set of desolations yet Israel and Jerusalem would eventually be saved out of it. (Isaiah 4:2-3;Daniel 12:1;Joel 3:16-17). Prophetically we have come full circle and for the first time in almost two thousand years there is a Jewish presence in Judea ("let those in Judea flee") and there is strong likelihood Jerusalem will once again be surrounded by hostile armies intent on Jerusalem's destruction.

The man of sin is destroyed at Christ's return (Isaiah 11:4;II Thess 2:8)and I'm quite certain that Titus was not destroyed by Christ at His second coming. Not to mention that Matthew 24 ends in the second coming of Christ when the last trumpet is blown and the saints are gathered together to Him at the rapture (Matthew 24:31).


_________________
David Winter

 2018/6/20 14:21Profile









 Re:

Well, David, if Darby said that about Tribulation saints then I agree with Rev. 7:14 & not him.

Did you read Dave Hunt's article? I don't expect you to agree with it, but, having met him & having heard him speak & read his books I have found him to be quite sincere. If you take issue with any of the Scriptures he cites in support of a pre-trib rapture feel free to give your counter arguments.

I don't hold to John Hagee's teachings, by the way.

 2018/6/20 15:46
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re: CalvaryCom

Thank you and I will read the article by Hunt.

I remain intrigued also by the timing of the last trumpet. How can there be a last trumpet at a pre-trib rapture when all saints living and dead put on immortality only to be followed by another trumpet at Christ's second coming when tribulalation saints living and dead put on immortality?


_________________
David Winter

 2018/6/20 16:04Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

What if Dave Hunt is wrong?

There is enough unclarity o this issue that certainty is not possible.

Perhaps the best policy is to hope for the best but expect the worst.


_________________
Todd

 2018/6/21 7:22Profile
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re:

/There is enough unclarity on this issue that certainty is not possible.

Perhaps the best policy is to hope for the best but expect the worst./

Is that really though the view that scriptures present? One of the fallacies that the church has come to embrace is that there is nothing regarding eschatology that can be known for certain so just be ready. If that is so, why do the prophetic scriptures portray a church that isn't in the dark and is full of understanding as to what is occurring around them? Just hoping is a issue of the mind and is important yet faith comes from the heart and causes hope to gird and fill the mind. Hope comes from faith. I would think God prefers a hopeful people in the end whose hope comes from a solid deposit of faith in their heart that comes from them having become prophetically literate instead of embracing the notion the best they can hope for in the end is to grope along not really knowing anything for certainty.


_________________
David Winter

 2018/6/21 10:29Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Yes David but surely you realize that there are multiple views on this issue and that absolute certainty is not possible? Even Paul was not absolutely certain.


_________________
Todd

 2018/6/21 10:57Profile
deltadom
Member



Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 2359
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

With Dave hunts article he argues apriory that there is a rapture and the second coming , it is a false dichotomy. When you study the passages for yourself you have a
problem

Matt 24
winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

My main problem is in Matt 24 Jesus says as the lightning comes from the east unto the west so shall the sign of the son of man be and he says that if any person comes before that time he is a false christ or false prophet

Some pre tribulation IST say this is for the Jews , my problem with this , the passage in revelation 20 and 2 Thessalonians line up

So if Jesus comes before his second coming he is classed as the antichrist , which includes things like the rapture

The argument from silience in revelation is such a bad argument



Revelation 1

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

To assume that John is the church is such a bad argument , the book of Esther does not mention God so should we not include it in the old testament or tanacke

You have also the fact that in Thessalonians it mentions the last trumpet , to me the argument of the pre tribulation rapture is like a house built on sand

My problem is that this doctrine to people who love the Jewish people that christians will be not be there during the time of great persecution for both the Christians and Jews

Tribulation is happening now and you could argue why has the believers in North Korea not been raptured , the pre tribulation is such a western doctrine

Another argument was why are we not in the tribulation now , one thing the abomination of desolation has not happened you do not have the antichrist sitting in the third temple and it has not been built yet

Worldwide persecution of Christians has not happened yet
According to Matt 24 it starts with the abomination of desolation.

I more wanted to concentrate on the fact could you live without money or the specifics of the tribulation are quite brutal


_________________
Dominic Shiells

 2018/6/21 11:29Profile





©2002-2024 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Revival to this Generation.
Privacy Policy