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deltadom
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Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 2359
Hemel Hempstead

 I dont know how I would survive the Tribulation


Revelation 13:17 King James Version (KJV)

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Sorry for all the Pre Tribulation as you do not believe in this !

I am just arguing from a Post Tribulation and everyone else who thinks that they will go through the Tribulation.

Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

I do not believe the Tribulation will be until the Antichrist sits in the Temple !
Most people are hoarding for the Tribulation, What do you do when the Antichrist controls the whole world!

I always marvel how I got through from one year to another


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Dominic Shiells

 2018/6/16 18:42Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re: I dont know how I would survive the Tribulation

"And they OVERCAME him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony and they did not love their lives to the death." (Rev 12:11)


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David Winter

 2018/6/16 21:05Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re: From a premillennial view - the church and tribulational suffering

Unlike tribulation in general, as the church by definition is a tribulation people, the ‘great’ tribulation is much more particularly the great transition between this age and the age to come. This is why the great tribulation is compared to a final travail unto the birth of the new age of covenant promise. Also called the time of Jacob’s trouble and ‘Zion’s travail’, the unequaled tribulation ends with the birth of Israel and the translation of the church. This is very significant, because this convergence is not only because Jesus returns at this time, but because of what God has accomplished in these two, elect entities.

In the case of Israel, the beleaguered remnant according to the election of grace has been brought finally, and fully to “the end of their power” (Deut 32:36; Dan 12:7) in preparation to look upon Him whom they pierced when He comes in the clouds (Zech 12:10; Mt 23:39; 24:30; Acts 3:21; Ro 11:26; Rev 1:7). In the case of the church, a process of revelation and experience of divine power in the furnace of affliction has brought the corporate body of Christ to its promised eschatological perfection (Dan 11:32-33, 35; 12:3, 10; Jn 17:23; Eph 4:13; Heb 4:9; 1Jn 4:18; Rev 12:11; 19:7).

This twin event of birth and resurrection at Jesus’ return begins the liberation of the creation described in Ro 8:20, which we see as realized in two stages, pre and post millennial (Isa 24:22; Ro 8:20; Rev 20). All of this means the end of the age is not only waiting on the completion of His purpose to bring Israel back to Him, not only His intention to fully reveal the mystery of iniquity, but His intention to perfect His corporate servant, the church, in a final demonstration before principalities and powers. I call this the ‘final straightening of the church’.

The tribulation, with its clearly marked certainty of the time, and abundance of unsealed revelation and prophetic fulfillment, will function as a kind of birthing canal, emptying not only Israel but the church of their power. This is why I believe we should see the enormous use that God has invested in the first half of the week.

What God has invested in giving the church the critical preparation of the first half of the week is exactly WHY the church will be straightened and prepared for the great transition that takes place at the beginning of the second half. This time will mark Michael’s clearing the heaven of Satan’s hindering presence (Rev 12:7-14 with Dan 12:1).

This brings Satan down for his ‘short time’ (Rev 12:12), but it also signals the time that the two witnesses receive their power, but not ONLY the two witnesses, but a whole body of ‘maskilim’ who receive strength and power at precisely the same time that Michael is evicting Satan (Rev 12:10-11). These who “love not their lives unto the death” are shown in Daniel’s prophecy to be receiving this power to “be strong and do great exploits and instruct many” at the very time the abomination is being placed that begins the unequaled time of trouble (Dan 11:31-33; 12:1-2, 7, 11). It is no accident that THIS is the very time the two witnesses are receiving their power for final tribulation witness.

I hope we can see this. It cannot be too greatly stressed that this great transition at the mid-point of Daniel’s final week is, not only the time that Satan is being thrust out of heaven and confined to earth for his ‘short time’ of unparalleled destruction; it is the same time the daily sacrifice is being taken away and the abomination of desolation placed in Judea to begin the great tribulation, just 3 1/2 years before “the end” (Dan 9:27; 12:7, 11). We must not miss this connection! Michael’s heavenly victory results, not only in woe for the earth, but in great anointing of power coming upon the church for the final testimony that results in a multitude beyond human ability to count coming out of ‘the tribulation, the great one’ (Rev 7:9, 13-14).

As Jesus saw His appointed hour, those of understanding will see and prophetically apprehend the approaching test for all its unparalleled requirement. As the door of the last seven years is shut firmly behind us, many more of the awakening body of Christ will begin to foresee the evil and dig down deep, greatly hiding herself in Christ, knowing her natural inability to stand in the evil day. This will prepare and fit the church, not only for her final purification and perfection unto translation at Jesus’ return, but her ultimate testimony to the nations, more than at any other time moving Israel to jealousy.

As Jesus said of Peter, I believe it can be prophetically said of the church of the last hour, that another will take her and lead her where she would not have gone, even to a corporate cross of obedience unto death (Rev 12:11). So the purification of the saints of the last and unequaled tribulation is unto a divinely ordained perfection that ends in translation, with the removal of the veil cast over all nations (Isa 25:7-8; Rev 10:7). I am suggesting that the testing of the church, I would call it the great emptying of the church, is not unrelated to the veil that is spread over the nations being removed with the finishing of the mystery of God at Jesus’ return (Isa 25:7; Rev 10:7). There is something about the relation of revelation “at the end of power”, which is to say at the end of human self sufficiency, which must always removed as a necessary prerequisite for resurrection.

(Reggie Kelly - June, 2018)


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David Winter

 2018/6/16 21:40Profile
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Joined: 2008/10/25
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 Re: I dont know how I would survive the Tribulation

Quote:
deltadom
I do not believe the Tribulation will be until the Antichrist sits in the Temple !
Most people are hoarding for the Tribulation, What do you do when the Antichrist controls the whole world!


A lot of people are hoarding but they do not realize the power of smell, nearby, they will smell it and come for them and their food!

Quote:
deltadom
I always marvel how I got through from one year to another


Marvel at how God got the Israeli's through the desert for over 40 years! God is the SAME yesterday, today and forever! Trust Him!

God bless,
Lisa


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Lisa

 2018/6/16 22:00Profile
narrowpath
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Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1522
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 Re: I dont know how I would survive the Tribulation

Short answer is, you don't try to survive it:

Matthew 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

 2018/6/17 2:15Profile









 Re:

Docs, the article you quoted indicates that God will perfect the church through suffering in the Great Tribulation. However, so many saints have already escaped the Tribulation by dying in millennia prior to that event---therefore these "spirits of just men made perfect" did not & shall not go through that experience---and therefore the rationale of that article is faulty. Those dead in Christ will rise in the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) with nothing lacking.

Dominic, I wouldn't be preoccupied with the Great Tribulation. Think of the Korean saints who have endured oppression from the Japanese from 1910-45 & the North Korean Christians who have suffered torture, imprisonment, & (near) death from the communist Kim dynasty from 1948 to this day. To them surviving a seven year Tribulation would be a joy compared to a lifetime of privation & the harshest treatment which is unending until premature death or old age. We really need to pray for them regularly.

 2018/6/17 5:35
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Dominic, I wouldn't be preoccupied with the Great Tribulation. Think of the Korean saints who have endured oppression from the Japanese from 1910-45 & the North Korean Christians who have suffered torture, imprisonment, & (near) death from the communist Kim dynasty from 1948 to this day. To them surviving a seven year Tribulation would be a joy compared to a lifetime of privation & the harshest treatment which is unending until premature death or old age. We really need to pray for them regularly.



I think this is good advice. If I have an close and intimate relationship with God through Jesus Christ, if I am accustomed to walking in total reliance on God through His Holy Spirit, if I am consistently trusting Him for everything in my life now, then I have nothing to worry about during any time of persecution or tribulation...even if I must give my very life for Him. His grace is sufficient and His supply is boundless.


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Travis

 2018/6/17 11:29Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re:

/Docs, the article you quoted indicates that God will perfect the church through suffering in the Great Tribulation. However, so many saints have already escaped the Tribulation by dying in millennia prior to that event---therefore these "spirits of just men made perfect" did not & shall not go through that experience---and therefore the rationale of that article is faulty. Those dead in Christ will rise in the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) with nothing lacking./

The article in my opinion does not speak against the church of past generations and their supposed lack of perfection until the church of the last generation is perfected. I assume God brings the church of each generation to a degree of maturity and perfection as fits His purposes. No, the church of past generations did not experience the Great Tribulation but scriptural examination shows who WILL experience the last and unparalleled Tribulation (Daniel 21:1, Matt 24:21, Rev 7:14). That is the generation and part of the church that the article mainly speaks to.

“As Jesus saw His appointed hour, those of understanding (a prophetically literate and understanding church) will see and prophetically apprehend the approaching test for all its unparalleled requirement. As the door of the last seven years is shut firmly behind us, many more of the awakening body of Christ will begin to foresee the evil and dig down deep, GREATLY HIDING HERSELF IN CHRIST (emphasis docs), knowing her natural inability to stand in the evil day. This will prepare and fit the church, not only for her final purification and perfection unto translation at Jesus’ return, but her ultimate testimony to the nations, more than at any other time moving Israel to jealousy. “

“In the case of the church, a process of revelation and experience of divine power in the furnace of affliction has brought the corporate body of Christ to its promised eschatological perfection (Dan 11:32-33, 35; 12:3, 10; Jn 17:23; Eph 4:13; Heb 4:9; 1Jn 4:18; Rev 12:11; 19:7).”

In many cases the church has relegated clear and precise scriptural statements of “the” great and final tribulation to something of a general statement covering all of church history instead of a time of unequaled testing to occur at the end of the age. None of this in any way denies the suffering and perfection of past church generations which should be a source of sober reverence for us all. I'm just wagering that scriptural portrayals of never before seen or experienced tribulation at the end of the age means never before seen or experienced tribulation at the end of the age. Through this the church of the final of the final days will mainly be stripped of its still dormant tendency to depend on its own self strength which is nothing more than reliance on the flesh. When it passes through this unavoidable and necessary affliction and death then the glory of the Lord will rise upon in true resurrection life it as it has been straitened and fitted for its eschatological destiny.


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David Winter

 2018/6/19 12:52Profile
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
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 Re:

//I’m just wagering that scriptural portrayals of never before seen or experienced tribulation at the end of the age means never before seen or experienced tribulation at the end of the age.//

How will a person know when this is occurring? In other words how would a person know there is not something far worse coming, perhaps many many years in the future?

And how can it be applied blanketly to all Christians when Christians in some countries have been subjected to great persecution, torture and death for many years? What tribulation is greater than torture and brutalizations of loved ones and family members?


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Todd

 2018/6/19 13:42Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re: Jesus gave the key of keys

It was Jesus Himself who gave us the key to understanding the time of the approaching end of the age by referring us specifically to the writings of the prophet Daniel. It was Christ who encouraged us to reference these writings.

15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet (Daniel 8:13;9:27;11:29;12:11) standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.

18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.

19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

21 For then (after the abomination of desolation takes place) there will be a GREAT TRIBULATION, SUCH AS HAS NOT OCCURRED since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

Jesus is quoting almost verbatim from the writings of Daniel in Daniel 12:1 where Daniel prophesies a TIME OF DISTRESS SUCH AS NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION.

Daniel 12:2 is a passage that most commentators agree is the most clear passage in the entire Old Testament that refers to the resurrection of the dead. So the unequaled time of distress Daniel describes in Daniel 12:1 is followed in the very next verse by a description of the resurrection of the dead. So the time of distress unequaled is followed in close time proximity by the resurrection which is at the end of the age.

Many Jewish people have referred to this time as the "footsteps of the Messiah." Meaning they believe the coming of the Jewish Messiah will be preceded by a time of trouble of never before seen for its scope and intensity yet out of which Israel will be saved and delivered. This is the context which many in today's church have lost sight of because of attempting to "reinterpret" the plain meaning of these eschatological scriptures.

The key, which Jesus Himself directed us to for clarity, is found in Matthew 24:15. When this occurs (when you "see") then the Great Tribulation surpassing all others will begin. Jesus gave us a unmistakable and very clear clue as to what to look for. He gave His church the key to know and understand these times that are to come. "Behold, I have told you all things in advance."


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David Winter

 2018/6/19 14:27Profile





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