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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : America Will Never See Revival...Unless...

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docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1857


 Re: ccchhhrrriiisss

Well, the premise still stands I think. Much of the church acknowledges we are part of increasing persecution today but the teaching is when it reaches its fiercest and most unparalleled intensity at the end of the age the church will have escaped it all and already be in glory. It is often a point said to be proven by the mention of a few church fathers who have certain quotes attributed to them that prove a pre-trib rapture. Yet in spite of these, any fair and objective assessment of the early church fathers proves beyond a doubt that 90% or more of them never remotely spoke of a pre-trib rapture. It was unknown to them yet modern day proponents of the pre-trib notion won't go there. The small 10% is enough. Many pre-trib believers love Israel and speak of their commitment to stand with them at any time or cost but when the final time of Jacob's trouble comes it will be Jacob's problem and not our because we will be gone is the real bottom line.

Then there is the much ignored teaching that presently accompanies the pre-trib belief. That teaching is that tribulation saints who come to faith during the tribulation by placing their faith in Christ and His atoning blood and sacrifice WILL NOT EVER be part of the church. They are another group of saints altogether and although saved they will not be indwelled by the Holy Spirit. J. N. Darby was the first person in church history to ever propose such a novelty that indeed approaches to the level of outright heresy. It's time to get real up front and acknowledge these things. I believe that the Bible teaches that anyone anywhere at anytime in any dispensation that places their faith in Christ's sacrifice and His cleansing blood are indeed part of the church. Why aren't the famous leaders who are household names today that are teaching this separation (one group that is saved is the church and the other group that is saved is not the church) being questioned about it? There's no more time for dilly dallying around. Either these things are true or they are error.

Saints during the great tribulation are pictured as: "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives unto the death." (Rev 12:11)

Above all, the number one attraction to the pre-trib theory is the physical preservation of one's life during this time. "We are going to get out of it right when it really begins. No need to worry." The saints in Rev 12:11 are not worried about their physical life - they have laid it on the altar also. They love not even their own lives unto death. It's a grand and majestic power filled portrayal that God is going to raise up such a group of saints at that time. What reward will they lose if they perish during this time? They are pictured as OVERCOMING! And if they are overcoming by the blood of the Lamb how can it be said they are NOT PART OF THE CHURCH??!!

Much needs to be looked at these days regarding the pre-trib theory and the never before heard teachings that presently accompany it.

Thank you and blessings.


_________________
David Winter

 2019/1/31 12:41Profile
Solomon101
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Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 516
America's Heartand

 Re:

Persecution does NOT purify the church.

The blood of Christ purifies His Church.

All persecution does is drive out those who are either not actually believers or who fade at persecution.

Persecution does NOT purify. It only seems that way to some because the marginal ones withdraw.

 2019/1/31 16:55Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4482


 Re:

Hi David (docs),

I understand that there are people who believe that Christians shouldn't be forced to experience persecution or trials. However, this isn't confined to people who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture.

I've spoken with post-trib individuals who embrace the same sort of beliefs. I suspect it is an issue in which they're unaware of what the Bible actually teaches about such matters. The hyper-prosperity "name it-claim it" movement went a long way in spreading such deception.

At the same time, I disagree with the notion that Mr. Darby "invented" the concept of the "rapture." Many anti-rapture publications claim this and it is simply untrue.

Please correct me if I am incorrect, but it seems that you're suggesting that an apparent lack of specific mention of the "rapture" by early church leaders somehow indicates that the concept is a modern invention. I find this method of thinking to be an error.

First of all, there just isn't a whole lot of writing from the early church still available (aside from the Word of God). What we do have is surviving letters or instructions. Yet, all of this is suspect too. It can only tell us what certain individuals (and their followers) believed at the time. From the Book of Acts and the epistles, we know that there was already creeping corruption and deception at very early times in church history.

As you've mentioned, there is indication of a belief in the post-John early church. Early church figures such as Irenaeus, Cyprian and Ephraim wrote things that seemingly indicate a belief that the Bride of Christ would either be gathered prior to the pouring of God's wrath upon the world or, in the very least, gathered and protected from it throughout its disbursement.

Of course, this doesn't mean that such men were right (or wrong) on this matter. It simply indicates that it was a concept known in these early time periods.

When people ask me about my beliefs, I let them know that I really don't know. Academically speaking, I consider myself scholarly. I am well-versed in the Word of God. I have studied this subject thoroughly for years. Yet, I cannot state with absolute certainty whether there will or will not be a "gathering" of the Bride of Christ before the Wrath of God is poured out during that period known as the Great Tribulation.

I still lean toward this idea. However, I have not reached a conclusion. I prefer to share various alternatives with the admonition that we should always "watch and pray" and be prepared for whatever may come.

I am careful to explain that even the idea of a "rapture" is not an escape from the troubles, trials and tribulations of this life. We will face varying degrees of trials and tribulations. We will be persecuted for His Name. Yet, despite all manners of trials and persecutions (including those believers throughout history who have faced death), we can be joyful in the hope that accompanies the eternal salvation that comes with our faith in Christ.


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Christopher

 2019/2/1 11:58Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1857


 Re:

Irenaeus:

"And they (the ten kings) shall...give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight ("Against Heresies" V, 26,1).

"But he (John) indicates the number of the name (Antichrist, 666) now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is ("Against Heresies," V, 30,4).

Irenaeus also places the resurrection of the Church after the rule of the Antichrist and in conjunction with the resurrection of OT saints. ("Against Heresies" - V, 34,3; V,35,1)

Cyprian:

Cyprian comments on the purpose of the tribulational passage in the Olivet Discourse:

"With the exhortation of His foreseeing word, instructing, and teaching, and preparing, and strenghtening the people of His Church for endurance of all things to come...(Treatise VII)

Cyprian also discusses the persecution of the Christians by the Antichrist. (Treatise XI, 12)


_________________
David Winter

 2019/2/1 14:47Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1857


 Re:

I dont think I mentioned that Darby (and his movement) invented the pre-trib theory. What I intended to mention was that he was the first to propose that those who come to faith in Christ during the tribulation will not be part of the church and body of Christ. Him and his followers then springboarded this teaching into mainstream Christianity against the well intended advice of orthodox Christians of the day. Many household names and well known pre-trib teachers are teaching this today.


_________________
David Winter

 2019/2/1 14:52Profile





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