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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : America Will Never See Revival...Unless...

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Joined: 2006/3/15
Posts: 162

 Re: America Will Never See Revival...Unless...


Our persecuted brothers and sisters pray that we will see persecution BECAUSE they have read "The Lord's Prayer"

“And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.” Matthew 6:13

 2018/5/26 9:28Profile

Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5158


I don’t see praying for brothers and sisters to be persecuted anywhere in the Lord’s prayer.


 2018/5/26 9:49Profile

Joined: 2006/3/15
Posts: 162

 Re: Praying to be Persecuted

I agree... TMK!

(I was being a little "tongue in cheek" with my last post.)

Being persecuted would lead some to being tempted to deny the Lord.

Persecutors are NOT driven by a loving heart void of evil.. they ARE the personification of evil!!!

Praying for others to be persecuted is NOT Biblical!

“I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.” John 17:15

 2018/5/26 10:06Profile


Todd Jesus prayed your kingdom come your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. If we pray to advance his Kingdom this will bring persecution. Jesus said if they persecuted me they will persecute you.

The American church is not exempt from prosecution. The demands of the cross are implicit even about American evangelicals. A rejection of the world and embracing of the cross will bring about persecution. And many times it will be persecution from the professing evangelical church.

Somehow we think we can have the revival without embracing the cross. We think we can have revival in comfortable revival conferences and expect the Holy Spirit to break out in a controlled way. We think by listening to preachers preach about revival we expect revival to break out. That without paying the cost of extended prayer on our knees.

The place where the Holy Spirit is moving is in nations that are not friendly to the gospel. Mainly because the believers in those nations have embraced the cross so that Christ can live in them.

But then those people in the nations of Iran and China are desperate. The persecution and the oppression of the governments have brought them to a point of desperation that they cry out for the living Christ.

We in America have not reached that point of desperation. We have not reached the point of desperation to where Jesus is all we have. Again qpoting Corrie Ten Boom. She says you never know that Jesus is all you need until you discover that Jesus is all you have.

The American notion of revival is that God preserve the status quo and not bring judgment upon us. When really revival should be a longing, desiring of the presence of God and God Alone. For that we have to be brought to a point of desperation that he is our only desire.

We are not at that point. The most dangerous prayer can be God make us desperate. God make us desperate for you and you alone. That will in on embracing of the cross and persecution. But this is a message that the American Church does not want to hear. Do we comfortable American evengelical stair to prove such a prayer. For it will mean a stripping of everything we hold dear to where we see Jesus and Jesus alone.

But a "few" on America will hear. It will be those few who choose to enter through the narrow way of Jesus and his cross. Upon this remnant few God will bring Revival. But it will be those few who embrace the cross. They will be persecuted by the "many" And it will be the many in the professing evengelical American Church.

The question is. Are we one of the few?


 2018/5/26 10:15

Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5158


Sorry dspks- didn’t catch the “tongue in cheekiness!” My bad.

Bear if you can show me one place in scripture where we are told to actually pray that either we or others be persecuted, then I will step in line with your way of thinking.

I agree that a true witness for Jesus will endure some sort of persecution- that just goes with the territory.

So, what we should pray for is that we will be true witnesses for Jesus. If we are true witnesses for Jesus He will give us grace to endure persecution.

You are putting the cart before the horse by stating we must have persecution in order to be true witnesses. Scripture says it is the other way around.

Even so, I will continue to pray that brothers and sisters experiencing systematic persecution will be delivered from that persecution.

In fact I’ll pray that right now: “Lord, show mercy on our brothers and sisters and your children who are experiencing systemic and state sponsored persecution. Rain fire and brimstone on those evil men who scheme and torture and kill your precious children who you bought with a price. Strengthen those who call out to you until they are delivered and preserve their lives. Amen.


 2018/5/26 10:57Profile

Joined: 2006/3/15
Posts: 162


Persecution may lead to revival... BUT... it is NOT Biblical to pray FOR persecution.

What did the Apostle Paul wish upon a back slidden church?

“The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. My love be with you all in Christ Jesus. Amen.” 1 Corinthians 16:23, 24

 2018/5/26 11:09Profile

Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3142

 Re: dspks

dspks....Persecution may lead to revival... BUT... it is NOT Biblical to pray FOR persecution.

I think there is a scripture from the "Bears Study Bible" that might prove you wrong. :-)

Mr. Bill

 2018/5/26 12:25Profile


Todd writes...

/// Rain fire and brimstone on those evil men who scheme and torture and kill your precious children who you bought with a price. ///

Todd even the persecuted don't pray for their enemies that way.  Their prayers are their persecutors will come to know Christ.

Luke 9:51-56 (NASB)

When the days were approaching for His ascension, He was determined to go to Jerusalem; and He sent messengers on ahead of Him, and they went and entered a village of the Samaritans to make arrangements for Him. But they did not receive Him, because He was traveling toward Jerusalem. 

When His disciples James and John saw this, they said, "Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?"  But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of;  for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." And they went on to another village.

Your prayer is of another spirit. It is certainly not the Spirit of Christ.  We do not pray that way for the persecutors on Persecution Watch.  Our prayers always and have been for their salvation. We pray the way Jesus did from the cross. Father forgive them for they know not what they do. We pray they come to know Christ.

That is what we are doing in a 31 Night Watch through Ramadan. Crying out for the salvation of Muslims who persecute believers in Christ. Not that God vonsign them to the pit of hell. I would not wish the horrors of hell even on my worst enemy.


 2018/5/26 17:24


Again I'm posting the open doors video so it can be viewed for clarification. The Chinese believers were desperate. The persecution came as a result of the communist government takeover. This made the believers desperate to see the living Christ move in their midst. Much time was given to extended prayer.

I simply point out that the American church has not reached that point of desperation. Dare we pray that God make us desperate. That may be through persecution. That may be through an economic collapse. That may be through an environmental or terroristic catastrophe. That may be through all of the above.

The Chinese were forced in desperation to cry out to God. The American church is not forced into desperation. The American church is not desperate for the living Christ to move among them. We are steeped in our narcissism and materialism. We are steeped in our own self centered sin. Perhaps seeing the sin in the church will cause a few to cry out for God to move. But in the end it may be the few who repudiate the religious system of Babylon and go out to the cross to bear his reproach. But it will be those few who will experience the true revival Pentecost of God.

There will be the few who hear the call of Christ to go through the narrow way. That will be the narrow way of the cross. There will be the few who will labor in their prayer rooms and cry out to God for Holy Ghost power to come up on them. These will be the few who will see the true power of God to come up on them. These will be the ones who will go out to win the souls and to do the miracles of the Holy Spirit.

But these will also be the few who will be persecuted by the religious structure of this age. The remnant few will be those who will be persecuted by the organized evangelical church. Just as happened with Jesus. Just as happened with the first century church. Just as happened with the Anabaptists. Just as happened with any remnant group who went outside the camp to embrace the cross and follow Jesus. This present remnant will be persecuted by those who embrace the religious spirit of this age.

Again the question is will we be one of the few who will choose to go to the narrow way of the cross and to apprehend Jesus in all of his fullness. Will we be the few who will labor in the prayer room to truly cry out for Holy Ghost power to come upon us. And dare to do the works of Christ. Will we be one of the few who will go outside the camp to bear the reproach of Jesus by taking up his cross.

The Chinese believers were willing to do it. And they paid the price. The Iranian believers were willing to do it. And they paid the price. Are we willing to do it? And are we willing to pay the price?


 2018/5/26 17:48


Note: The video from open doors which Blaine posted here is attached to the below article on my own website. It was placed there to accompany another video and attached article which I will post separately. The one thing that Blaine said that was mistaken had to do with praying for persecution on the church. The video from Open Doors does not say that. However, this is all it takes to have others mock and ridicule another. What Blaine could have said is that persecution is coming to the USA and not even revival will turn it away. That is prophetic. But then Blaine did not say he was a prophet. The video from Open Doors also begins from 1949. Some of that period until 1956 covers the time watchman Nee was imprisoned prior to his trial. It was essentially believers who had witnessed at his trial including 許梅驪.

This is her statement at Nee's trial.

My Complaint
Xu Mei Li

The Government has recently cracked down on Watchman Nee’s anti-revolution group, who has disguised themselves as a religious service provider for many years, I feel so happy and relieved with an indescribable feeling. I sincerely thank the government who eliminated this great evil. I was one of the Christian youth, and a victim of Watchman Nee’s anti-revolution group with its malicious and misleading [agenda] when I was a student at Shanghai No. 2 Medical College. I was deceived and poisoned by them, I acted as an accomplice to poison the youth, badly influencing many youth and children in the universities, middle schools and hospitals. Now, I have woken up. I want to [make this] appeal and uncover the crime committed by the Watchman Nee’s anti-revolution group.

When the Shanghai people were inspired and excited to welcome the liberation, anti-revolutionists Watchman Nee and Li Changshou (fled to Taiwan) and induced a group of youth to Taiwan continuing to encourage them to be their leading malicious practitioners. Why did Watchman Nee and Li Changshou have such a strong interest in Taiwan? Because they are all Chiang Kaishi lap dogs.

In 1950 when the United States imperialists invaded Korea suddenly, Watchman Nee openly told us not to participate in the Korean campaign at the special meetings for core members in Shanghai. I was misled and affected by his statement, I thought even if the United States imperialists invaded Huangpu River at Shanghai, it has nothing to do with me. So many Christians are misled by his statement not to fight against the United States Imperialist’ aggression. It was Watchman Nee’s hope that imperialism would enslave the Chinese people again.

Watchman Nee wanted us to act as double-face people, on one side we are good students who are obedient to school rules with good academic performance, on the other we will use all means to disseminate the ideas for anti-revolution. They want me to spread the ideas "do not be tempted by anything" and "do not think about it" among young Christians on the campus. By this, they want to control me; they poisoned my mind and spirit. They crammed my mind with negative, hostile thoughts which are opposite to patriotism for new China, and I was frighten to be patriotic. Whenever I listened to the political reporting, I heard the brilliant achievements in my country and how the young generation is cared for in our country, and how the Communist Party opens up a bright future for the youth. I have also been moved and struggled mentally whenever I watched the political report (our school organised us to watch it). Sometimes I was moved to tears secretly, but I thought of the words by Watchman Nee and the anti-revolutionary group, then I felt unease that I was moved by the movie, then I felt guilty of sins, and desperately tried to use their words to conceal this ideological struggle. Under their influence, I became a person who is disheartened, double-faced toward my country and my people, without any patriotism, [I was] a person who did not care or was even indifferent to the new look of my country. From liberation of Shanghai to the end of last year, I have not even been to the Shanghai First Department Store, even when I was walking there I did not dare to look at the windows on both sides of the street, I was afraid to lose my spirituality. I went to worship at the church on Nanyang Road, I passed by the Sino-Soviet Friendship Building each time, I really wanted to look at the star on the tip of the building, because the star is beautiful in red, but I did not have the courage to look up, being afraid of temptation, sometimes I saw the star occasionally, as if I was guilty [of something].

When the "counter-insurgency" campaign started, Watchman Nee’s group was in panic. The anti-revolutionist Wang Peizhen had talked with me a few times, saying that, “in the future sharing the gospel would be in blood.” “This is a test for you,” and more viciously said, “the government is our enemy”. He also told me not to be “afraid of them” and to learn to “resist the revolutionaries and refused to answer their questions”. If they are innocent, why were they so nervous about the counter-insurgency campaign? Why did they ask us not to answer the questioning? Why did they encourage us to bleed and die? They did this in the hope that they could use us to conceal the truth of being anti-revolutionists.

For months, the party members in Organisation Department had patiently taught me. I finally awakened, hated them, and uncovered their ugly anti-revolutionary activities. I deeply felt, Watchman Nee’s anti-revolutionary group are not, so-called, "brothers and sisters,", but a group of the most dangerous wolves in sheep's clothing. They are guilty of poisoning the youth. If they killed me, just one person would die, but they intentionally did not do so, instead, [they] more viciously let me maintain an image of a normal young student, an outward appearance of a "saint", and poisoned my heart, then [they] utilised me to mislead more young people.

It is sunshine and freedom everywhere [in] our motherland, but the anti-revolutionists throw our youth into the refrigerator, stuff our nostrils with cotton, and forced us to live suffocated lives, completely uncomfortable and suffering unnecessary pains; following them into a dead end to be against the people. Now the government arrested this group of anti-revolutionists, which is really an uplifting thing! [As} In the past, [and] as aperson who had stayed with them and [was] deceived by them to conduct activities against the people's interests, I hope you will thoroughly explain your problems, to stand on the side of the people, uncovering the Watchman Nee’s anti-revolutionary group for their crime, fighting against the anti-revolutionist ruthlessly.

Comment Addition: The last statement by Dr Hsu is addressed to other believers in the Shanghai Christian Assembly encouraging them to denounce Nee.

The Chinese original is as follows:


最近政府破获了长期披着宗教外衣进行反革命活动的倪折声发革命集团,我心中感到说不出来的高兴、痛快,我衷 心感谢政府为我们除去了这一大害。

我是一个受倪折声反革命集团毒害最深的基督教青年,是上海第二医学院学生。我在他们的蒙蔽毒害下,做了他们 毒害青少年的帮凶,在大学、中学和医院中毒害了许多青年和儿童。现在我醒悟了,我要控诉,我要揭发倪柝声发 革命集团的罪行。

在上海人民欢欣鼓舞地等待着解放时,发革命分子倪柝声、李常受(已逃往台湾)把一批青年诱骗到台湾去做他们 在台湾进行罪恶活动的骨干。为什么倪柝声、李常受对台湾这样感兴趣?原来他们都是蒋介石的忠实 走狗。
1950年当美帝国主义疯狂地侵略朝鲜时,倪柝声却在上海骨干分子的特别聚会中明目张胆地叫我们不要参加抗 美援朝运动。当时我受了倪柝声反动言论的毒害,就真的想,即使美帝国主义打到黄浦江也不管我事。多少教徒都 受他的毒害不想抵抗美帝国主义的侵略。倪柝声就是这样希望帝国主义重新来奴役中国人民的。

倪柝声发革命集团要我们两面派的手法,叫我们表面上成为功课好、守校规的“好学生”, 去争取群众,然后叫我们运用各种方式去散布发革命毒素。他们要我在学校教徒青年里散布“一切不能动心”和“ 不用思想。”纪念来他们紧紧地抓住我,毒害了我的心灵,他们把许多消极的、敌视新中国的反动思想充塞了我的 头脑,使我对抗爱国主义教育,使我不敢爱国。每当我听了政治报告,听到祖国建设的辉煌成就和祖国怎样关怀青 年一代,共产党怎样为青年开辟了美好的前途,我也受到感动,思想上也有过斗争。每当我看了电影(学校里组织 大家去看的电影),有时我也感动得暗暗地流下了眼泪,但是我想到了倪柝声反革命集团的话,我又为我自己动了 心而感到不安,就像犯了罪一样,并且竭力用倪柝声反革命集团灌输给我的反动论调来掩盖所引起的思想斗争。在 他们的毒害下,我变成了一个对自己祖国对人民完全冷酷的、耍两面手段的、毫无爱国心的人。 对祖国的新面貌我不仅不关心而且不动心。从上海解放到去年年底,我连上海市第一百货商店都没有去过,跑路时 连两旁橱窗也不敢看,害怕堕了灵性。我到南阳路教会去做礼拜的时候,总要经过中苏友好大厦,我心里很想看那 塔尖的红星,因为这颗实在红的好看,可是我没有勇气抬头,怕受引诱,有时偶尔看到了心里很怕, 好像犯了罪。

在“肃反”运动开始后,倪柝声发革命集团就表现得非常惊慌,反革命分子王佩真就几次找我谈话,对我说:“今 后传福音是用血来传的”,“这次是对你的一个考验”,并且更恶毒地把政府说成是仇敌,又叫我“不要怕他们” ,叫我抗拒肃反学习,拒绝交代。他们如果是清白的人,为什么在肃反运动中这样紧张呢?为什么叫我们去拒绝交 代呢?为什么叫我们去流血去死呢?他们这样做是梦想叫我们隐瞒他们的反革命底细。

几个月来,组织上耐心地教育我,我终于觉醒过来,并且痛恨他们,揭发了他们许多丑恶的反革命底细。我深深地 感到,倪柝声反革命集团根本不是是什么“年长弟兄姐妹”,而是一群最凶险的披着羊皮的狼,是毒害青年的罪魁 。他们如果杀死我,不过是害了一个青年,但是他们不这样做,却更恶毒地要我维持一个正常青年的外壳,一个“ 圣人”的外壳,而毒死了我的心,有利用我去毒害许多年青人的心。在祖国土地上充满了阳光和自由,但反革命分 子却把我们青年丢进了冰箱,在我们的鼻孔塞满了棉花,叫我们过着窒息的日子,处处觉得不自在而忍受着许多不 必要的痛苦,跟着他们走上反人民的绝路。现在政府逮捕了这批反革命分子,这真是大快人心的事!过去曾经和他 们在一起,并且被他们蒙蔽利用进行过违反人民利益的活动的人,我希望你们能彻底地交代自己的问题,站到人民 的队伍中来,揭发倪柝声反革命集团的丑恶罪行,与反革命分子作无情的斗争。


I had this translation (above) made in China a few years ago.

Finally, if we are serious about revival then it is unlikely that we will move into its meaning until it comes by others' hands. And that is what my below article was intended to say. And that, I believe is what Blaine intended to say.

Revival In The Church

Revival is a term that many saints hold to in order to look for an answer to their own lives as well as the lives of other saints. The emphasis is sometimes broader and includes a revival of society generally. The question we must ask ourselves is how that way of looking at recovery is either helpful or else entirely accurate if we believe that revival is a panacea for the saints and for society. When we examine the lives of the saints after restoration – also how society is changed after improvement – what will we see? We must be honest, and we must look. It is essential that when we do this, we also realise that the revivals that we can examine do not speak of the condition of today. They talk about the day in which they happened. And whilst they carry into the decades after revival, they are still outwith the day we live in. So whatever we do learn by looking at revival in the past, we must always hold to the condition of the day we live in to express our own hope.

If we take the Welsh revival then we would speak of Evan Roberts as a focus for research, of China, we would talk of Watchman Nee and of Scotland we would talk of Duncan Campbell. The one fact that separates these three revivals of God is so sobering that we cannot ignore it, and must say it from the very outset. China has never ceased to be revived – even when persecution was most present. Wales fell into death and moral depravity after revival. The Isle of Lewis fell back into darkness. Indeed Lewis is a very sobering account, and I could personally speak in terms witnessed first hand in my own walk, after revival, that would give us cause to tremble. Whereas China has remained on fire even during the most severe persecution.

I have a reason for saying these things, and that reason is entirely to do with Britain. If we ask ourselves the questions that are most pertinent to explaining how it is that all of God’s sovereign work in revival of the saints can be so characteristically similar, so that almost every revival not only comes to an end but that its finale also marks the beginning of darkness once again, we would have to realise that the reason is because whilst God is sovereign in revival, his workmen are in authority in the Church. We do not have room here to explain this in great detail. What we can say is:

All revivals begin with a few men and women who pray, intercede and groan for the hand of God on his people, and they are all primarily directed at the condition of the churches, yet realising that the churches will be filled with new believers if revival comes. When that is established there is always God’s promise on those few people. When the time comes for revival, that promise is held before God, and He is courageously asked to meet His part in that agreement.

Duncan Campbell reported that seventy percent of all the people who were saved in the revival of the Outer Hebrides were saved with no intervention of men. They neither heard the gospel, nor were witnessed to, neither did any man or woman direct them, neither could they explain how they came to be acting as they did when they gathered in hundreds outside churches, in fields, and in homes, and outside police stations. All they knew was that they were taken by a means in which God did not contradict their needs, yet their needs were not met until God finished with them. They fell down in fields whilst at work on the harvest, fell into ditches whilst going to social events, and were ministered to by children and by anyone who it pleased God to bring to them in their moment of salvation. Entire villages were swept by the hand of God and buildings were shaken, children were caught up in a triumph of obedience, and the Kingdom of Heaven was evidenced in such children, for as it is written, of such as these is the Kingdom of Heaven. God has perfected His praise in children.

It is no wonder that we see revival of God as an answer to the church and the nation. However, what we also need to know is that both in China in the late forties and early nineteen fifties, in Lewis in the late forties and into the fifties, as well as Wales in the first decade of the twentieth century, it was the Church and not merely the world that brought harm, injury and imprisonment of the benefit of revival by the means of men’s weakness, by bitterness, by jealousy and by an instrument and effect of Satan. Some were falsely imprisoned by accusations, doctrine and unimaginable spiritual rebellion. In Lewis, doors were thrown shut in some churches as a real and visible rebellion, and the cry was to refuse God and despise His mercy.

The Mercy of God

Some of this rebellion was dealt with in the same way that God deals with all uprising in revival, He shows mercy and men are changed and become His true workmen. Committees and agreements, and an organised rebellion are evidenced in a time of revival, by the church. Moreover, when the hand of God is passed, it is the church that imprisons those who have been saved, so that by means of a jealousy of men, babes in Christ are set in chains. The same thing happened in China, and whilst others would be better witnessing of Wales, the same thing happened in Wales, also.

So here is the difference in China.

Before revival came, a few men and a few sisters were obedient. They laboured in their ministries, through their books and in their teachings all that which would be necessary for China, once Satan had the hand of imprisonment. Satan persecuted those men and women, when they bore in their bodies the cost – when they were despised by many, rejected by many, and where believers who could not be as they were, yielded to Communism – betrayed them – becoming slaves to oppression Their obedience, in books, prayers, fasting, teaching and suffering, laid a foundation. When the time of tribulation came, they paid a further price, and many gave their lives. All others who are appointed to salvation – and the church which is called to be Holy, as God is Holy – could then stand in the midst of unimaginable trials, so as to be always revived. In truth, their work was broader and deeper in preparation for revival, and so when it came, they were already in that crowd of witnesses and not a voice in the midst. Many of them never saw revival other than in a modest way of evangelism. Revival came after decades of Communist oppression, yet even those who were saved and nurtured in their own day survived, and went underground. It has been their obedience based on the efforts and faithfulness of a few others before them that has given the revived church in China its ability to stay revived. At the heart of the labour of these early men and women, from the mid nineteen twenties, through to the early nineteen fifties, there has been one undoubted character. They embraced the cross unto death. And those who have followed them have remained in that same obedience.

To demonstrate this principle from the Scripture:

Christ says:

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.”

“After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst!” Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.”

Then we read:

“I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.”

“Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church.”

If we can fathom how it is that in Christ all men are included in His death and that He says, “It is finished!” And how Paul agrees with his inclusion in Christ’s death, yet speaks that he fills up that which is lacking, or else behind in Christ’s suffering, then we can understand the difference between the church in China and the churches in other places. If not then we are destined to see revival and little lasting effect. In that outcome, we will be changed for an hour and perhaps no more than that. Whereas we live at the end of the age and we must be changed permanently otherwise we will be caught up in unnecessary suffering, and may even betray Christ as some did in China, when others paid a full price of obedience, and through their willingness, the church in China has seen the fullest revival in any place.

Robert Chisholm

 2018/12/28 17:26

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