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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2037

 Admist today's events, Israel far from in the clear

Over sentimentality for Israel (not necessarily altogether bad) can in ways blind one to hard to digest prophetic facts still ahead for Israel.

1 At that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was SINCE THERE WAS A NATION, even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, every one who is found written in the book.

2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Daniel 12:1-2)

In Matthew 24:21, Jesus, when asked about His coming and the end of the age, quoted Daniel almost verbatim word for word concerning the unequalled time of trouble to immediately precede His coming. Then Daniel 12:2 shows that the unequaled time of distress is followed in close time proximity by the resurrection of the dead.

Israel's severest time of trouble is still ahead in keeping with the fact that they are still the most backslidden nation on the earth. But prophetic destiny that has been pronounced will still come to pass and the prodigal nation will still be granted a undeserved revelation as to who Christ really is. I think it is likely that Jews and Jewish installations will begin to be attacked in urban centers of the world and the controversy of the Jews in Palestine will grow so great as to be the epi-center of world problems.

David Winter

 2018/5/14 18:39Profile

Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1429

 Re: Admist today's events, Israel far from in the clear

Hi Docs yep Im agreeing with what ur saying but under a Hillary Clinton admistration things would have been almost impossible considering what went on at the UN with Obama.So I have to celebrate that God has put a barrier no matter how temporary up and has allowed an amazing Miracle that Israel would be able to celebrate its 70 anniversary with USA shoulder to shoulder beside them .On the night of the US election nobody thought this was remotely possible and even less on SI urs staff

 2018/5/14 19:17Profile

Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2037


For generations large parts of the Church were told there would never ever be a return of Jews to Palestine and any form of national entity in regards to a Hebrew nation was out of the question entirely. And the reason for their present remarkable against all odds return has cast aside the sovereignty of God and has been relegated to having been caused by conspiring Zionists who whined and pulled strings long enough to get their way while being backed by demons like Rotschild etc.


"God willed after the institution of the New Covenant there should no longer be any Jews in the world - yet here they are! That is a fact - a very sad fact, brought about by their rebellion against God."

(From "The Seed of Abraham" - by Albertus Pieters - (1897-1987) - former Professor of Bible and Missions at Western Theological Seminary in Holland, Michigan)

"not that all will be converted, but that many will...(although we cannot be certain either in what way or when precisely it will take place0...But whatever that calling of them shall be , a restitution of Jewish polity to the land of Canaan IS NOT TO BE DREAMED OF (emphasis docs)...Besides, this polity was to last only until Christ...Finally, if God had wished to restore that polity, He would not have suffered it to be abolished for so long a time (for over sixteen centuries)."

(From "Institutes of Elenctic Theology" - by F. Turretin - (1623-1687) - studied at Calvin's academy and later taught there for 30 years)

David Winter

 2018/5/14 20:46Profile

Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


Did anybody hear the prayer that John Hagee prayed today in Jerusalem at the new US embassy.

He prayed a beautiful prayer but never mentioned the name of Jesus. I think I understand why but still I find it hard to believe a Christian should pray without mentioning the name of Jesus. He mentioned the Messiah coming to Jerusalem but never mentioned that Jesus is the Messiah.

I know that the Jews do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah and that John Hagee was a part of this celebration that means a lot to Israel but still it looks like He could have found a way to celebrate with them while still mentioning as a Christian the name of Jesus Christ.

Any thoughts?

 2018/5/14 21:10Profile


Hague wrote in one of his books that the Jews do not need to be saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ in order to go to heaven. He claims they are under a different covenant. This is blasphemy, of course. He regularly has orthodox Jewish rabbis on his show, and never challenges them to consider the messianic claims of Christ.

 2018/5/15 7:10

Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2037


Televangelist John Hagee and Rabbi Aryeh Scheinberg, whose Cornerstone Church and Rodfei Sholom congregations are based in San Antonio, told The Jerusalem Post that Falwell had adopted Hagee’s innovative belief in what Christians refer to as “dual covenant” theology.

This creed, which runs counter to mainstream evangelism, maintains that the Jewish people has a special relationship to God through the revelation at Sinai and therefore does not need “to go through Christ or the Cross” to get to heaven.

Scheinberg said this has been Hagee’s position for the 25 years the two have worked together on behalf of Israel and that Falwell had also come to accept it. Falwell sent a representative to the San Antonio launch of Christians United for Israel in early February, as did popular televangelist Pat Robertson.

Scheinberg said he had worked with Hagee since 1981, when the pastor first broached the idea of organizing a night to honor Israel, which has become an annual event.

“He came to the Jewish community and of course they were skeptical, they were a bit suspicious, anxious about whatever agenda he might have,” the rabbi recalled. “He took public positions against proselytizing the Jews, which some of his own colleagues at that time criticized him roundly for; for example, Falwell was at that time very critical of his nonconversionary statements regarding the Jews. But that’s not the case now though. Falwell has changed his position,” he said.

Hagee has been consistent in this theological position, Scheinberg said, and this was reflected in both the declared policy of CUFI and at the public launch of the organization last month.

“It seemed there was a great deal of unity – not unanimity – on nonconversion, a nonproselytizing agenda, that the Jews have a special covenant, and this was stated over and over,” the rabbi said.

“It was stated in Hagee’s opening speech, in his opening statement, and then repeated again. And when there was a question period later, no one asked about this. It seemed to be understood that any hidden agenda, any attempt at conversion, would undermine all their efforts, would be counterproductive, and that’s not what they are about.

“There was always concern on the part of the Jewish community that there’s a hidden agenda now, to convert now, to proselytize now. And regarding that, Hagee was very strong in saying no, we are not proselytizing,” Scheinberg said.

(Source: Falwell: Jews can get to heaven, Jerusalem Post, Israel, Feb. 28, 2006)

Dual Covenant Denied

Pastors John Hagee and Jerry Falwell have both denied a report in The Jerusalem Post earlier this week that they embrace the “dual covenant” theology, which holds that Jews are saved through a special relationship with God and so need not become Christians to get to heaven.

In a statement to the Post, the Texas-based televangelist Hagee said that neither he nor Southern Baptist pastor Falwell “believe or teach Dual Covenant.”

Hagee added that he had “made it a practice for 25 years not to target Jews for conversion” at any “Night to Honor Israel” events. If Jews “inquire about our faith at a later time, we give them a full scriptural presentation of redemption.”

He stressed that “regardless of the response from the Jewish person, we remain friends in support of the State of Israel as required by scripture.”

Falwell, meanwhile, posted a statement on his website to the effect that he believes “all people – Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostals, Jews, Muslims, etc.” must accept Jesus in order to enter heaven.

(Source: Hagee, Falwell deny endorsing ‘dual covenant’, Jerusalem Post, Israel, Mar. 2, 2006)

Denying a Jerusalem Post story that said he had embraced a “dual covenant” theology, Southern Baptist pastor Jerry Falwell said March 1 that he believes all people, including Jews, “must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ in order to enter heaven.”

“I do not follow this teaching of ‘dual covenant’ theology and I believe it runs counter to the Gospel,” Falwell said in a statement posted on “I have been on record all 54 years of my ministry as being opposed to ‘dual covenant’ theology.”

Rejected by orthodox theologians, dual covenant theology holds that Jews are saved through a special, unique relationship with God and need not trust in Christ for salvation.

“Dr. Hagee called me today and said he never made these statements to the Jerusalem Post or to anyone else. He assured me that he would immediately contact the Jerusalem Post and request a correction. Before today, I had never heard of Rabbi Aryeh Scheinberg or had any communications with him. I therefore am at a total loss as to why he would make such statements about me to the Post, if in fact he did.

“In this age of political correctness and diversity, the traditional evangelical belief that salvation is available only through faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ is often portrayed as closed-minded and bigoted. But if one is to believe in Jesus Christ, he must believe in His words: ‘I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father but by Me’ (John 14:6). I simply cannot alter my belief that Jesus is The Way to heaven, as He taught.

“Again, I do not follow this teaching of ‘dual covenant’ theology and I believe it runs counter to the Gospel.

“I have been on record all 54 years of my ministry as being opposed to ‘dual covenant’ theology. In fact, Dr. John Hagee has indicated to me, as recently as today, that he likewise does not accept ‘dual covenant’ theology.

(Source: Jerry Falwell denies Jerusalem Post story, says everyone, including Jews, needs Christ, Baptist Press, Mar. 1, 2006)

Docs: I watched a video last week on youtube by Dr. Michael Brown as he debated with Dr. Gary Demar. In the course of the debate Dr. Brown said specifically that he asked John Hagee to his face about dual covenant theology and he was told to his face by Hagee that he (Hagee) did not believe in dual covenant theology nor had never taught it.

I'm not trying to be an antagonist to anyone but where are the actual quotes from Hagee as he teaches a dual covenant theology? There seems to be a large difference in supposedly not evangelizing Jews and not evangelizing them openly at dinners etc. held to honor Israel. Again, I'm not trying to be antagonistic but I've believed for a while that these common accusations against Hagee may need a deeper investigation as to what really is what.


David Winter

 2018/5/15 8:31Profile


 2018/5/15 9:34

Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


never mentioned that Jesus is the Messiah.

As I watched the ceremony I remembered, with grief, those in Jesus' day who failed to recognize Him as their Messiah - because they were expecting a political Messiah. That expectation was reflective in many of the statements made yesterday. It's a conflation of God's kingdom and human kingdoms (See "Kingdom's in Conflict" by Charles Colson)

Yesterday's "prophetic event" is undeniably an outworking of human ambition and power. Jesus came to bring another kingdom - with peace through the work of salvation in the heart - peace with God, and peace between divided people groups through His Spirit ruling within. God is doing just that - between Palestinians and Jews. I missed hearing from those folk at this event.

On another note: According to a genetic study, a higher percentage of Palestinians today have Jewish genetics than those called Jews - who mostly come from Europe. Linking current Israelis with Abraham - to me - is pushing things too far.

That doesn't mean that God can't use all this for his glory... of course!


 2018/5/15 10:39Profile

Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2037


I haven't looked into everything he has said or taught. I just know that every time I have looked into the claims of him teaching "dual covenant theology" that the proof has not been there and he himself has denied it.

David Winter

 2018/5/15 10:59Profile

Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK


David, I just finished watching the new film 'Covenant and Controversy part 3", on Jacobs Trouble which presents in detail exactly what you have alluded to in your OP.

You can watch free on youtube or Vimeo. Just put in that title.

Interesting facts I never knew about Bulgaria's role in WW2 in saving all their Jewish citizens from Hitler's gas chambers.


 2018/5/16 15:15Profile

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