| Re: |
Blaine: I would personally say that trinity / oneness is not a salvation issue. Nowhere does scripture teach us that having a distinct trinitarian view is necessary for salvation, and I find nowhere that oneness doctrine would prevent salvation in any way.
I do disagree with the UPC idea that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation. It is not. I have seen people who were baptized in the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues and even prophesied at the moment of their salvation. It was awesome to see it happen just like I read about it in Acts. But this is not what usually happens, and it is not necessary for salvation. Their error comes in believing that a person's spirit is not made alive unto God until the experience of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This is simply an extension of a similar doctrine that was taught by Charles Parham. He believed that a person was not "born again" at salvation, but rather at a second definite experience called "sanctification". This was a holdover from his methodist background and the teaching of the second blessing. This second blessing was, I believe, the experience of the baptsim of the Holy Spirit in the very early 1800s at Cain Ridge when Methodism really thrived. But it was watered down over the years until the early 1900s and Parham.
All it boils down to men trying to build structures in their understanding of what God is doing. Their structures become doctrines and we hold to those rather than holding to the actual word of God.
(Tradition making the word of none effect).
| 2018/5/2 11:15||Profile|
| Re: |
Thanks Travis. I would tend to agree with you brother. That's why I opened up that the thread do we discount them as brothers and sisters. I've had some experience with the Seventh Day Adventist. They would hold to the essential doctrines that evangelicals would hold to regarding salvation and the scriptures. But have some rather heterodox views regarding the law, Sabbath, investigative judgment, Etc. But yet I believe some in that denomination are born again. Particularly if they belueve Romans 10:9-10.
| 2018/5/2 11:21|
| Re: |
First of all, I want to say, that I appreciate your heart,thoughts, desire,sincerity, and your openness here.... a blessing.
Now, I’d like to share my experience w/ UPC, Jesus Name, gathering of people.
When The Lord first started drawing me unto Himself (Grace),..I was not even on milk,.. knowing nothing except that He existed.
He made me sooo hungry for The Word/ the knowledge of Him,and hungry to find a church,.... I looked and saw many ,..
then I looked and thought on the ,.. now adays Pentecostal ‘s, and thought they really “LOOKED” to be more of the real thing.
So I started out there,.. But,.. (give credit to God,alone) He kept me from following man... Taught me to continue to look for His Way,.. to seek Him alone,..and His plum line to measure by.
He spoke early on one day to me, and I wondered why, because I was not being a hypocrite ,.. but He said,..
“BEWARE OF HYPOCRISY “
My Mother-in-law,attended this type of gathering,.. but she was a most precious Godly person,.... a set-apart person,..her life during the week was one of Living ‘the life’.of one who has a relationship w/ The Lord.
She worked hard all week in the fields, and on Sunday ‘s labored fixing dinners for many that would come to fellowship and eat.... even when she was not well.
I loved her dearly.
We are called to be followers of Jesus, ... and Not traditions,and standards.
We are called to be filled w/ The Spirit of God, and to be ‘led’ by The Spirit of God,.... For The Scripture’s says ,
“for as many,as are ‘led’ by The Spirit of God, .. ‘they are!”, .. “they are! “, “they are! “,.. . The Son/ children of God.”
We are called to ‘worship’ in the Spirit, .. in Truth,.. His Word is Truth.
(To truly adore His Word)
And that may not mean to jump up and down ,and run around in the building, ....very loud emotional music promoting our emotions to be elevated... the only thing that we identify to have had ‘good church ‘
David danced before The Lord,... David was a man after God’ own heart,...
Out of the heart one speaketh,..
The Word says,..we are to consider one’s conversation that wants to lead us.... What do they talk about,.. In everyday life?...
is it covetousness, is it dishonesty,.. is there extortion ( a wringing out)
of persons to profit ones self.
And last of all,
If we ‘believe in ‘a jesus ‘ ,.. without the Word, then we believe in ‘another jesus,.. and we know,we do not want to be baptized into the name of that jesus.
To be baptized into the Name of Jesus, .. we are baptized unto a death, unto >>>> a Life of Jesus ,>>>>>.. His Name,.. which is His The Whole Word of God.
“And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, ‘CALLING ON THE NAME OF THE LORD’ “ ...(calling on the “Name”
, to change us from our OLD name unto His Name,... His Word ,.. His Name working in us),... our new name.
(This is the baptism that now saves us.,.. through the previous blood of Jesus)
The love of God is sewn abroad in our hearts...... (the love FOR God, who is The Word) ,..... and the love for others)
One other thing:
Consider Paul and baptism,.. wouldn’t Paul have been baptizing left and right,.. but what did he say ?... he said,”I came not to baptize,...”
I tremble to put this out there,...
| 2018/5/2 11:27||Profile|
| Re: |
I have seen people from all different denominations that were lost in legalism. What I mean is that they are relying on keeping laws and rules for their relationship with God. This cannot save them.
So with the SDA. They have some really aberrant beliefs. To me, their doctrine is really borderline. Yet they teach salvation through repentance and faith in the work of Jesus Christ.
I would say that many are saved. I would say that many are not. I have seen this in every major denomination. Praise God we do not have to have all of our doctrinal ducks in a row to be saved.
This is radically different from a group like the LDS or JW. They are lost. They have been deceived into believing a lie that is essential to their salvation.
| 2018/5/2 11:29||Profile|
Thanks sister Elizabeth for telling your experience and insight!
Thanks Blaine and Travis for your insight!
I don’t believe that water baptism of itself saves but only in the sense of a good conscience toward God. I know Jesus said he that believes and is baptized shall be saved. The apostles carried out the command of Jesus to baptize believers. I would not want to not do anything that Jesus commanded us specifically to do.
I believe that water baptism represents our death, burial and resurrection in Jesus. It must mean something to God for he commands us to do it. I believe it is an act normally before the infilling of the Holy Ghost. We are to reckon ourselves dead to sin but alive unto God. We are to be cleansed by the blood of Jesus.
I would say something like repent...believe in Jesus to save you then be baptized into Jesus Christ his death on account of your forgiveness of sins and be raised with him to walk in newness of life and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
This would be at the beginning of our Christian walk but the letters that the apostles wrote to the body of Christ contain the gospel message that we Christians are to believe concerning our salvation and discipleship.
Romans 1:16-17 (KJV) 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (KJV) 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Blessings to all!
| 2018/5/2 12:22||Profile|
| Re: |
I think this has been a good thread. It's causing me to thank who do I call my brothers and sisters in Christ. For sure there are those in the Seventh-day Adventists and the Oneness Pentecostals where we would have issues regarding their doctrine. That is not to be minimized. But if they hold to the person and work of Jesus for salvation. Can we really say they are not brothers and sisters in Christ. Particilarly if they exhibit the nine fruit of the Spirit; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goidness faithfulnesd, gentleness, self-control.
In the persecuted church it is simple. All are persecuted who are in the shadow of the cross. Be they Catholic or Orthodox or Evangelical. I remember a young woman took issue with our prayer call becsuse we ere praying for Catholics in Nigeria. Catholics who had been martyred by jihadists because they would not deny their faith in Christ. Despite my trying to gently reason with her. She felt that because they were Roman Catholics. We should not be praying for them. Needless to say she left our call.
When persecution comes to our nation. I hope I could have the attitude of our brother Richard Wurmbrand. When he was in prison he found rich fellowship with Catholic and Orthodox btethren who were in the same jail cell with him. I hope that I could find rich fellowship with Oneness Pentecostals and Seventh-Day Adventist brethren should I be in prison with them.
Simply my thoughts.
| 2018/5/2 13:08|
| Re: |
I am compelled to chime in with enthusiastic encouragement about the spirit of the posts in this thread!
So much grace, boldness, vulnerability, transparency.....LOVE!!
Super edifying! Answered prayer!
I praise Christ Jesus for each of you precious saints!
With much love for you all,
| 2018/5/2 13:27||Profile|
| Re: |
Brother Banks: I am not accusing you of being UPC, forgive me if you felt my post was accusatory in that way. I do believe you promoted a man who teaches error, that's all I explicitly said.
The thrust of my post was to encourage all of us to be distinctive. We who are truly born of God are the Church the pillar and ground of truth. If you cannot find truth in what you teach, you are not of God.
The apostles taught us directly and indirectly about being distinctive in our doctrine and our way of life. I am saying vague similarities between the UPC or any other cult are danger points. Those who refuse to be distinctive will use those similarities to unite with any devil that dresses in the proper garb and says the right words.
I know that some of us don't think the godhead is an essential of the Christian faith. The early Church Fathers would strongly disagree with that assumption.
If you read the works of Athanasius or Basil they go to great lengths to clarify the Triune God over against Modalists, Nestorians, Sebellians etc. Are their clarifications mere writing exercises for scholars? No, they are there to help us guard against 'angels of light' that come in Jesus name...but when their 'Jesus' is examined he is nothing like what is taught in scripture.
As Travis said human analogies can lead us astray, yet, I don't need to rely upon analogy to understand Patripatassianism (a son-father) is not what Jesus is or has claimed to be. So, when I find modern-day version of it, I refuse it by reason of truth, not by reason of human analogy that sounds persuasive.
For some the litmus test is some vague "salvation issue" which loosely defined simply means "what I deem important to my theological persuasion". That kind of relativism does not help the Church and surely cannot be 'the ground of truth' that we are to be.
You cannot help people be free of error if you consider the truth you hold as something akin to Jello. I don't have a Jello understanding of God in Trinity, I don't have a Jello understanding of the person of Jesus Christ, not because I have my own 'doctrine' but I do have the word of God that declares explicitly his divinity and humanity.
When will we grow up? When will we stop balking at terms like 'hypostatic union', acting as if to know the definition of it and what it means is relegated only to some esoteric few? It's for all of us, not just the early Church Fathers or ecclesiastical careerists.
When we take our own posts and relegate them to mere criticism or some divisive mean opinion, we do ourselves a terrible disfavor. If it weren't for Jesus dividing with the religion of the day, were would we be? If it weren't for Paul dividing with Peter over Jew/gentile relations where would we be?
You all need to make up your mind, division for the right reasons for the glory of God is godly, righteous and good.
If you are not dividing light from dark, good from evil, vile from precious, holy from unholy who will?
It's not a matter of pretending to know who is saved and who is not, nor where we might find some saved among the cults, its obvious God has people in all kinds of places. The issue has always been "coming out from Babylon" and coming out from the World. If you cannot offer them a place to go to, then by default you are taking up residence in Babylon and have found comfort in the world.
| 2018/5/2 16:07||Profile|
| Re: |
Blessings brother Marvin!
I appreciated the truth in your post as well as the passion for the truth!
I always get something out of your posts that blesses me!
| 2018/5/2 21:41||Profile|