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We are all here to encourage one another,.. but we must study ‘the plumb line’,... in order to measure man ‘s voice by The Spirit / Word He has given unto us.
Jesus said, we will know the Truth.
Jesus said, ‘follow me’
Paul said, ‘to follow him ‘AS’ he followed Christ’,.. and what I am trying to say is, we must know Christ and His Way,in order to know if (Paul) or one is following Christ.... for many deceivers are in the world.
We must first of all, be taught by The anointing of The Holy Spirit.
Hungering and thirstIng after The Lord,and His Way,..
What I am trying to say is, I beg you,..love the brethren,..but NOT get wrapped up in man, but in God,..alone.
“ But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.“
And not the ‘oneness’ ,... If Paul would have ‘seen’ in this way, don’t we believe he would have preached it that way, but instead see many,many times he never failed to mention ‘God’ .... ‘The Father’ ,.... ‘The Son’
Please, .... it is easy to get side-tracked,..let us keep our eyes on Jesus,The Word,,The Spirit.
Just caring and the love of God,
| 2018/5/1 23:00||Profile|
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Hi Rbanks: TBN was always friendly to Oneness pentacostalism, Tom Tenny 'the God chasers' and TD Jakes frequented TBN.
I know how appearances are, I come on here telling folks that UPC is a cult, and you come on here promoting one of their ministers. I come on here refusing to fellowship with Anti-Trinitarians, Modalists or Deity deniers like the Jw's or the Mormons.
I realize it's easier to accept anyone who can say a prayer in Jesus name and Baptize folks. I realize I make no friends by making enemies of everyone who happily accepts any doctrine so long as the preacher has good works and prayer meetings. But, I still call them a cult and still think there is a fundamental error in accepting them.
If the UPC were not a divisive cult, they would be at our ministers conferences and would be sending their people to listen to avowed Trinitarians...but they do not. They are happy to preach to Trinitarians and gain some notoriety, but they will not send their congregants to fellowship with Trinitarians. Why? Because they fundamentally believe doctrines that are false but yet charge Trinitarians that they are false; and they know that they cannot assimilate into our Churches or otherwise they would lose members.
This is exactly the same thing the Mormons and Jw's do, they are happy to have us attend, but they will not allow their members to attend normative Christian services.
So, I am for division, I am divided against error, divided against false teaching. Error and truth are irreconcilable, It matters to God what God you worship and how you conduct yourself. When the Trinitarians baptizes in the Father Son and Holy Spirit, the Oneness refuse to acknowledge that baptism, if you do not speak in tongues you are not saved.
But, with the spirit of this age, we are encouraged to unite..because to be divided over doctrine is worse than being in a cult or even being lost. I anathematize such thinking; its foreign to scripture and to genuine Christianity.
Brother Blaine posted an article by Chip Brogden, He's all about repudiation...over 300 some reads, but no one even raised an eyebrow to the fact that we are all just working from the wrong "R" word. It's no longer reformation, it's no good to be a revivalist...we need repudiation. Yet, Where's the repudiation for cultic doctrine?
It is not unity to sacrifice the scriptures and proper interpretation for smiles, pats on the back and approvals from men.
I personally do not give a penny for unity based on concession to error. This is what the false prophets did, this is what false teachers do, this is what the blind who lead the blind seek to promote; a full acceptance of a person based not upon a scriptural criteria but upon the externals of prayer and baptism...and the preaching to large crowds. Shoot, the W.O.F do that and I know we have a few here that reject them, but cults we now allow?
I cannot call him a man of God who cannot seem to understand God is not in the Spirit mode, nor in the 'son' mode. Men of God are men who know what the scriptures teach...and they do not teach modal monarchianism.
I've spent years dealing with the UPC, Ive had family members sucked into it and how it distorted their relationship with Jesus Christ. I've had the Lord Jesus speak directly to me about this group and I will not draw back now, he showed me they are wonderful to look at, but they eat what is vile and should never be eaten.
It does matter what you believe, otherwise why the restrictions to this discussion board? Why the limitations on 'who should be downloaded'? Because truth matters. Greg has the spiritual foresight to acknowledge that.
Think about this for a moment.
The protestant reformation...it was dividing against the Catholic Church...for the betterment of the body of Christ and for the glory of God. Wesley's preaching drew about about 150,000 people for the Church of England...Methodism was formed. It is not by living in some pretended unity, but by leaving the errant, dead and fake behind and striking forward in God.
To many I sound like a divisive mean guy who just wants all the world to be reformed in doctrine. But, I have realized something very clearly over the years, those who pretend to be above it all and claim myself and other 'just cant see past our own doctrinal persuasions' are just as equally mired in their own doctrinal persuasions and speak on pretense that they have a door to unity and understanding the rest do not. They do not have the understanding or unity they pretend to have or promote.
The fact that nothing is anathematized yet we are so interested in unity and ending divisiveness we will swallow anything so long as it does not create the appearance of being mean or divisive.
Repudiation...so many read it, but I don't believe anyone believes it.
Why is homosexuality finding some acceptance in Churches now a days? Because of the very thing that's being done on his discussion board, sacrificing truth for the appearance of love and acceptance. What does giving place to homosexuality do doctrinally? It creates a distortion of who God is and when that is distorted the Word of God must be distorted to fit the god we chose.
Christianity 101, carrying the cross of Christ gives the appearance you don't love people, it gives the appearance you are a lost cause dying on a hill that you need no die on.
| 2018/5/1 23:14||Profile|
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Thanks sister Elizabeth and brother Marvin for your posts!
Have a blessed night!
Love in Christ and Blessings to all!
| 2018/5/1 23:29||Profile|
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A blessed night to you also, dear brother.
| 2018/5/2 0:31||Profile|
East TN (for now)
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The reason I wrote this post because I have recently come across some powerful music of the Pentecostals of Alexandria.
Literally the ONLY thing that they have going for them is that seemingly "powerful music" and every single church plays that same music. It's like the watching the piped piper play down the street and people follow him but I compel you, they do NOT worship in Spirit and Truth.
Please listen to Marvin.
God bless you,
| 2018/5/2 5:26||Profile|
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Marvin: I am closer to this thing than you might think and I am well acquainted with the issue. In our fellowship we have people who came from the UPC. Many from the oneness background are very strongly grounded in the tradition of that doctrine. It is can definitely be a fighting issue with them.
My point is that any plain and clear reading of the gospels shows us that God manifests Himself to us in three distinct persons. If we say otherwise, we make total confusion of Jesus words. We tend to focus on the baptism scriptures and thrown them back and forth at one another, but there is a huge weight of scripture that speaks to this that does not rely on the scriptures about baptism.
One other note. The people in our fellowship that I speak of are in love with the Lord in a powerful way. God has been transforming their lives as He has all of us. We have spoken about the issue. But it has never become a contention in our fellowship. I credit this to a passionate pursuit of God which brings about a humility and a desire for unity.
I will say this. It does not bother me in the least if someones view of God is not trinitarian. I think the issue might be that many people lump non-trinitarian and unitarian in the same boat. Unitarian is a false doctrine (doctrine of demons Biblically). A non-trinitarian view is not. There is not an essential doctrine that those that grew up UPC that are now in our fellowship are missing. They just have some trouble with the separation of persons that trinitarians teach.
But again, I think the core of it is that we all try to come up with temporal analogies to explain a spiritual reality. This is like trying to describe a three dimensional object when we only live in a one dimensional world. We just cannot adequately do it.
Is God one....YES! Does He manifest Himself to us in three persons that are spoken of as if they are distinct and interact one with another by Jesus Himself...YES! These are simply observations from scripture that need no interpretation. I don't have to be steeped in any one doctrine to observe and recognize these things. That was my point in the first post.
Where that leaves us as we discuss this issue (meaning a trinitarian and someone who might be, lets say, UPC) depends on the heart of the individual. But I think we are often standing in ditches, hurling stones, and the real problem is that we don't understand at all what road we are on. We are in the flesh, trying to understand a spiritual reality and muddling it all up.
I can say that I don't totally understand it. But I know that God is spirit. This helps me a lot because at least I now know why I don't totally understand it and it gives me more grace for the other guy who is also muddling it all up with human analogy.
Hope that helps explain my thinking and my heart.
| 2018/5/2 8:38||Profile|
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First of all, I do not apologize for posting what I have posted.
I have plainly started that I believe in the trinity and that we are saved by the shed blood of Jesus Christ.
I am not oneness...and I know they teach doctrinal errors. I mention the Father all the time in my prayers along with praying in the name of Jesus. I also mention the Father in preaching and teaching which I have noticed that the UPC do not distinguish the difference in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit like we do.
I can very well see how people can be drawn into their churches because they use the scriptures in Acts concerning water baptism and do not have to change a word.
The JW’s do change the Word and also promote the name of Jehovah over the name of Jesus.
The thing that we have in common with the UPC is the name of Jesus which is above every name. The only name given among men whereby we must be saved.
Now I can see the water baptism in Jesus name but they are wrong about their oneness doctrine of making Jesus the Father, Son and Holy Ghost one person. Jesus prayed to his Father and not to himself as the Father. The baptism in the Holy Ghost can only happen after the blood has been applied in regeneration. The world cannot receive the Holy Ghost but only those who are saved by the cleansing blood of Jesus.
The reason I posted was to bring up scripture that is their flagship for their main cause. I mention the name of Jesus also as well as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit when I baptize. I also hate to see young people get caught up into doctrinal error but it is happening and it is sad. I have also seen people hurt because they didn’t feel accepted or saved because they cut their hair, wore pants, make up, didn’t speak in tongues. Legalism has hurt so many people from having a deeper experience with God or even a relationship at all with God.
Brother Marvin I appreciate you and your post. God only knows what I stand accused of and I humbly ask him if I am in in error please show me Lord because I depend on him with all my being. I must admit I do not understand everything but I have cause to believe that if a person truly repents and calls on Jesus Christ even though they may be where some doctrine is false...that God’s Love is so great that He can still save them.
I was saved in 1983 listening to a preacher that the message spoke right to me and I repented calling on the Father for Jesus to come into my heart and save me. This led me to my knees in repentance calling on Jesus and he saved me. I got a hunger for the Word of God and began to really read the Bible to grow in the Lord. This same preacher told me to go buy some books by Hagin and Copeland (WOF). I also started listening to them on the radio. Now as I began to grow in the Lord through prayer and reading the Bible I quit listening to Copeland soon because his message didn’t line up with the Bible. I soon got away from the WOF preachers because of their doctrine.
Now this doctrine on water baptism is the main reason that they are pulling so many into their churches. That is why I started off posting on Acts 2:38 the way I did. I love all of Acts chapter 2 including the 38th verse is powerful but because of the oneness doctrine many are afraid to even use this verse. This chapter is the first message preached where 3000 were saved.
Now the UPC Pastor I mentioned was with Jentzen Franklin and I did listen to him. I did listen to some of his messages and was amazed at his dedication. His dad started the church where he is at and he was raised in UPC all his life. He was sitting with Franklin as he told about his book and commented when asked to comment. I believe the man is very sincere and although I may not agree with all his doctrine I did agree with him on exalting the name of Jesus.
I can agree that this may be a cult as you say Marvin but it is the only cult that I know of that exalts the name of Jesus more than anybody else. No other cult baptizes in the name of Jesus and exalts the name of Jesus above every name that is to be named. Now again I don’t agree with all their doctrine but I don’t believe we need to fall into the trap of criticizing them over the name of Jesus. I think we need to warn people about the legalism but not demean the name of Jesus.
Finally, I was hoping...and am thankful for the meaningful discussion. Thank you Elizabeth for your most gracious replies. Thank you Marvin for your post because I did see your heart in it and gleaned some things from it.
Thank you Greg for SI because we are concerned for revival. I appreciate the opportunity to post because this is a serious issue and the only place I have the confidence to bring it up is with the SI brethren.
I apologize to those who may not have liked the way I brought the post up the way I did on Acts 2:38 but I had a reason for doing so. I have revealed a lot in this post.
Also, I just saw your post brother Travis and loved it!
Blessings to all!
| 2018/5/2 9:30||Profile|
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As I followed this discussion, at the beginning I did not consider it was a 'oneness' issue being discussed. I can now see that is where rbanks was coming from. That said, I still do not think that Baptism in the 'name of Jesus' or 'Father, Son and Holy Spirit' is necessarily a 'oneness' issue. There is scriptural evidence for both that does not affect ones belief in the distinction of three separate persons in the Godhead. Sometimes there is an over reaction to distance oneself from an error (i.e. oneness) and thereby put up theological walls.
I attend a local church that is definitely not 'oneness' at all. However there is obvious confusion in some who lead regarding our relationship to the Trinity. Not completely unusual because, as Travis has pointed out, it is hard for us to comprehend. So for instance, you hear folk pray to the 'Father' thanking Him for dying for their sins on the cross! I brought this to their attention recently, as I'm not sure if they realise what they are doing. I think it is possible that it has to do with a notion that we can only pray to the Father, 'in Jesus' name' and not pray to Jesus. I'm not sure as I did not get a response when I suggested this. But I never hear prayer to Jesus directly. So you can see the confusion even in Churches that have a correct theology of the trinity.
I do think it is normal to address the Father, through Jesus, or in Jesus' name, but at times it is appropriate and correct to address our pray to Jesus. There is scriptural and logical basis for that. However I do know that some have tied themselves up in a theological knot about this and the result can be practically confusing. In particular when at the same time they are happy to address Jesus directly in certain hymns and worship songs.
...but this is just another issue!
| 2018/5/2 9:51||Profile|
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That said, I still do not think that Baptism in the 'name of Jesus' or 'Father, Son and Holy Spirit' is necessarily a 'oneness' issue. There is scriptural evidence for both that does not affect ones belief in the distinction of three separate persons in the Godhead. Sometimes there is an over reaction to distance oneself from an error (i.e. oneness) and thereby put up theological walls.
Thanks brother Dave for your insight!
| 2018/5/2 10:17||Profile|
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If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation.
I am not versed in Oneness Doctrine so I will leave that to my betters such as Marvin. But in scanning the UPC statement of faith. Oneness folks would probably hold that one is saved by faith in Jesus Christ.
My issue with them would be the initial evidence of speaking in tongues. For they hold to prove one's salvation one must speak in tongues. I do not see that taught in Scripture.
If one is to prove their faith of repentance it should be by the fruit of the Spirit.
That being said Is believing in the Trinity a salvific issue? Would not simply obeying the truth in Romans 10:9-10 be enough to save a person?
Just pondering some questions here.
| 2018/5/2 10:26|