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twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2000
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Wow Frank! If this ever happens in Missouri again, I would love to see if I am close enough to attend.

I think you said something that I thought earlier today that really hits the crux of the issue. The Holy Spirit must be the one who is in charge. He must lead everything we do. It is His agenda after all that is important, right?

But I think we have become accustomed to doing things that are devoid of the Spirit of God. We do it by our own strength, with our own agenda, out of our own heart and mind, and this fleshly effort cannot bring the results of the Spirit of God. We plan programs, organize services, brand our church, advertise, and draw in crowds. We try our best to minister to them. We do it out of a good heart most often. Our own motive is usually a good one. The problem is that it is our motive and our strength. We do it in His name, but it is not necessarily His will.

It is much like trying to live our lives under the mindset of law and performance. We try to do good, change our behavior, and clean up our lives, hoping God will be pleased. "God, in your name I cast out demons, etc." His reply is, "I never knew you." God, I tried to build this church for You. His reply is, "But you never consulted Me about how I wanted it done."

It is not about form or fashion, order of service, type of music, etc.. It is about a heart that simply says, "God, this is Your church. I am here to steward this body. What do You want done and I will do it."


_________________
Travis

 2018/5/1 13:05Profile
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 786


 Re:

Apollus,

In a setting like that, how does doctrine become concrete?

 2018/5/1 13:18Profile









 Re:

Hi Travis,

You write.............

"We try our best to minister to them. We do it out of a good heart most often. Our own motive is usually a good one. The problem is that it is our motive and our strength. We do it in His name, but it is not necessarily His will."

I really believe that statement is true. I dont believe that there are any ministers sitting in back rooms plotting how they can outdo the Holy Spirit. I do believe that the vast majority of ministers are entrenched in their denominations traditions, imprisoned even. We had one relatively well known pastor at those meetings who was rather quiet all the way through. Near the end he was asked what he thought about the meetings. I will never forget what he said "They have been the highlight of my Christian life."

Can you imagine something so simple being so profound. The tragedy is, and one day we will have to answer to the Lord for it, that it is all so simple. It does not require degrees or diplomas, it required giftings and the Lord, I believe, has gifted every single saint and it is so vital that they be encouraged to use their giftings. I personally believe that apart from glorifying God and remembering what the Lord Jesus did for us, that this is the reason why we gather. To edify, to encourage, to exercise our gifts and to know in our hearts that God has used us. This, more than anything, builds the Body................bro Frank

 2018/5/1 14:03
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2014


 Re: havok

/In a setting like that, how does doctrine become concrete?/


To a certain degree, isn't the type of setting you asked about a concrete and living example of the doctrine of the many membered functioning with each member being willing to contribute what God has deposited within them. Would not this be doctrine displayed in a concrete and living way?

I'm not quibbling or trying to hassle but sincerely asking.

Thank you.


_________________
David Winter

 2018/5/1 15:28Profile
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2014


 Delete for now

I just can't get the link to work properly.

Thank you all your comments. Pls
s carry on.


_________________
David Winter

 2018/5/1 15:30Profile









 Re:

it is about yielding and surrendering to the Holy Spirit and having Jesus preeminent in the meeting...........bro Frank

I so agree on this. I was at the meeting in Missouri. It reminded me much of what I experienced during the Jesus movement. There was no agenda other than Jesus. It operated on the 1st Corinthians 14:26 model. Whoever had a teaching, a tongue, a hymn, a prayer, an insight, a scripture, Etc. Any good share.

All of us who participated at the meeting believe that Jesus came down in our midst. It was a wonderful time.

Which brings me to the question. Why do we need another revival conference. Where if just two or three come together in a spirit of unity. Jesus is right there in their midst.

Simply my thoughts.

 2018/5/1 15:46









 Re:

Havok writes...........

"In a setting like that, how does doctrine become concrete?"

Great question, outside of essentials I dont think anything should be concrete. There should be room for people of the Calvinistic persuasion and the Arminuis persuasion. There should also be room for those who believe in a pre trib rap and all other tribs. These should be interesting and fascinating in-house discussions we have where iron simply sharpens iron and no one announces that it's their ball and they are leaving. I once had breakfast once a week week for eight months with a Baptist Pastor friend who was convinced of a certain interpretation of Romans 7, I held the opposite view. It was one of the most rewarding encounters I have ever had.

Most of know this Scripture ....

A Song of degrees of David. Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments; As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.
(Psa 133:1-3)

If I could tie that Scripture to John 17 ....And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. (Joh 17:22-24)

And then tie it to And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:(Eph 4:11-13)

We begin to see something truly marvelous arise out of Scripture. We see first that there is a beautiful anointing that flows from unity, we see that example in the Psalm where so much oil is poured over the head ( revival?) that it runs down the beard and covers the whole Body. Who would not want that kind of anointing or glory? Then we see that very glory spoken of in John 17 by Jesus who says that when we are one as He and His Father are one then we behold His glory, the very glory given to Jesus by the Father. And then finally we see in Eph 4 just why we have all these gifts and ministries " Till we all come in the unity of the faith."

Its there brothers and sisters, its right there if we would only yield and surrender to the Word of God and not the traditions of men. There is no greater tragedy under heaven if when the Lord comes back the Body of Christ is multiply divided and separated by walls of division and denomination.........bro Frank



 2018/5/1 16:13
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 410
Cambodia

 Re:


There are several drivers of the form and format of worship gatherings.

1. tradition

2. fear of chaos and abuse

3. general lack of manifestation of the Holy Spirit in congregants' lives daily.

4. desire for larger and larger congregations driven by good motives and bad motives.

5. desire to receive and grow individually rather than to give and help others grow. This may be the most crucial problem in the church. It leads to the need for pastor centric churches, missional organizations, parachruch ministries, generally and inevitably creating a mercenary based Christianity where we hire people to do the work of ministry in place of the priesthood of believers.

6. using gatherings as a time for outreach to the lost and to seekers rather than primarily as a time of communion with God and His people.

7. quenching of the Spirit by despising prophesy. Cessationsism.

8. Pastor salaries that force pastors to be the center of church spiritual life. Pastors and lay people alike want this.

9. A human desire for structure where we can just show up and plug into church without thought or intention.

10. A lowering of understanding and expectation of what a true born again Christian is. We are building our spiritual houses primarily with "wood, hay and stubble" instead of "precious stones" and thus, the glory of God rarely falls into that spiritual temple. This is the one reason that should cause leadership to tremble for an account will be required.


_________________
Robert

 2018/5/1 16:33Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Quote:
"Great question, outside of essentials I dont think anything should be concrete. There should be room for people of the Calvinistic persuasion and the Arminuis persuasion. There should also be room for those who believe in a pre trib rap and all other tribs. These should be interesting and fascinating in-house discussions we have where iron simply sharpens iron and no one announces that it's their ball and they are leaving. I once had breakfast once a week week for eight months with a Baptist Pastor friend who was convinced of a certain interpretation of Romans 7, I held the opposite view. It was one of the most rewarding encounters I have ever had."

Hallelujah! Wouldn't that be great to see more often!!
Thanks Frank.

CoG...great post also. Hit it on the head(s).


_________________
Dave

 2018/5/1 17:03Profile
noone
Member



Joined: 2008/3/17
Posts: 75
United States

 Re:

"Great question, outside of essentials I dont think anything should be concrete. There should be room for people of the Calvinistic persuasion and the Arminuis persuasion. There should also be room for those who believe in a pre trib rap and all other tribs. These should be interesting and fascinating in-house discussions we have where iron simply sharpens iron and no one announces that it's their ball and they are leaving. I once had breakfast once a week week for eight months with a Baptist Pastor friend who was convinced of a certain interpretation of Romans 7, I held the opposite view. It was one of the most rewarding encounters I have ever had." end quote

I totally agree! I have been out of the building for about 6 or so years. We have recently started a "I have no name for it" but a group of friends coming together at my house eating together, reading books together or scripture or just visiting. Really just getting to know each other to love each other and figure out how to flesh out our walk with Christ in absolute surrender to Him and truly learning how to walk as His beloved SO WE CAN LOVE OTHERS!! That is the Gospel! That is what we are called to do love God with all our heart and our neighbor. Not set up doctrinal statements or set up people as Ministers and hand out titles or set up a "denomination"

WE may meet every week but then not meet for a couple weeks. It's just how everyone's schedule works. It really is not rocket science or that difficult to figure out. When you come out of the building you so want a system or set of rules to follow, but that is part of the problem imo. It really is simple! If you really want to know how the body should work then the first step is getting rid of what you think you know or grew up in. Get rid of it all and be willing to re-learn everything!

We have touched on most of our long held doctrines that we all grew up in "church" learning about and we may not have concrete answers for all of them but there is no judging when we have crazy questions or random thoughts. It really is like a family getting to know each other. That is what the body should look like. Just imagine being invited to a family dinner and when you walk through the door you are given a printed out itinerary and a time frame for each thing you are allowed to participate in as you sit in your rows of chairs staring at the back of your cousins head. Hogwash! The family would never bond or truly know each other. It would all be surface relationships for the most part.

Being the body is being a family...learning to deal with each others weirdness and loving each other anyway!


_________________
Tina

 2018/5/2 17:11Profile





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