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Lysa
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Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3395
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: Dialogue in church this morning


Years ago, I had a pastor that drove a long way to church and he always said, "If I'm not here on time, start without me." No one would. I was young and would tell the music leader, he said start without him, let's go. And they'd just look at me like I didn't know what I was doing.

Even with clear direction, they wouldn't do it. Whenever he was late, he would walk in and look so disappointed that no one had started without him.


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Lisa

 2018/4/30 12:52Profile
CofG
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Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 410
Cambodia

 Re:

It's very easy to accomplish this. Just gather together with a small group and sing, pray, read Scripture and give testimonies and ask God to send a prophetic word in brotherly love to build up the body. Share a meal afterwards. I go to "regular" church services and have a weekly meeting in my home. Every time we meet in my home, there is a sweetness and powerful presence of the Holy Spirit with some prophetic words, including knowledge and visions. There is a lot of love in the room for each other that is hard to express in the ordered church service and this is the key to having a fullness of the Spirit. Pursue love in the meeting and earnestly desire the Spiritual gifts, especially prophesy. The regular meetings I attend are also edifying but no where near as satisfying to the soul as the weekly small meetings.

I'm not sure that pastors are the actual problem. Scripturaly, elders are the right leadership of the local body. The problem is that to protect the flock, everyone assumes control of the meeting by the professionals and order is the
key to avoiding abuse. What it actually does is grieve the Spirit by despising prophesy. Kicking the Spirit out of the meeting by grieving Him through "despising' or not trusting the Spirit to control His own meeting is the result.


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Robert

 2018/4/30 17:02Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5380
NC, USA

 Re:

//powerful presence of the Holy Spirit with some prophetic words, including knowledge and visions.//

Hey Robert-

It might be helpful to some if you could explain further or give example(s) of this.


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Todd

 2018/4/30 18:59Profile
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Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 410
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 Re:

An example of brotherly love leading to a prophetic word in an actual meeting:


Prior to and during every worship meeting I pray intensely that God would give me and others in our group a word to bless and encourage someone. During prayer in one meeting I got a picture in my mind of a stack of stones, Ebineezer stones like the ones Israel constructed during their journey to remind them of God's goodness to them "thus far". I got the distinct impression from the Holy Spirit that there was one or more people in the room who had a stack of stones of remembrance in their minds of bad things that had happened to them in their lives that they were constantly remembering, dwelling on and living by instead of stones of God's goodness to them. When I shared this with the group, a first time visitor from France started crying and explained the word was for him. He shared that he had suffered many struggles in his life that had captured his mind and his faith and that he was spiritually trapped by the memory of these events. In fact, he confessed that these stones ( testimonies ) had almost become idols to him. We prayed for him and over him and he started repenting to God about not releasing these things and in not rather having stones of remembrance for all God's goodness in his life. Just one example of many by others and I think I've personally only had a few visions or words of knowledge like this so it isn't some strange habit of envisioning pictures, etc. At the risk of sounding foolish about such things, I share this story because I would be twice this foolish if helped a brother or sister draw closer to God.


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Robert

 2018/4/30 20:33Profile
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5380
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 Re:

Excellent— thanks for sharing that!


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Todd

 2018/4/30 21:30Profile









 Re:

Lisa that made me smile, I can just hear you say "he said start without him," and then nobody would. We have been taught for centuries how to depend on the one man at the front, not biblical but definately ingrained into almost every church and most denominations.

Oh how I would love the problem that the Corinthian church had in their midst and Paul had to correct. Everybody had a tongue or a word or a spiritual song or a prophecy. Paul wrote and told them two or three of this and two or three of that and let there be order in all of it. You can take a wild man, full of life, and tone down his behavior, but what can you do with a dead man? What would Paul write to the average church today on this very topic? ..........bro Frank

 2018/5/1 0:12









 Re:

Excellent testimony of how your gatherings are in your house Robert. Also the word that you shared and was embraced by the Frenchman was an excellent example of the work of the Holy Spirit. Your right, its not complicated. One word builds upon another and the Holy Spirit is given His proper place, and a Holy Spirit filled elder would know how to work as the Holy Spirit leads. You said..............

"I'm not sure that pastors are the actual problem. Scripturaly, elders are the right leadership of the local body."

The problem with that brother is that in a vast majority of churches, the pastor picks the elder and in so many cases the elder is not picked for being full of the Holy Spirit but often times because he is a successful business man or large tither or already prominent in some secular way. In my experience the highest qualification for elders in so many churches is their loyalty, not to God, but to the pastor. Yes men can never be good elders but it is the way of the world.............bro Frank

 2018/5/1 0:25
havok20x
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Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 786


 Re:

Been reading "In the Shadow of the Almighty" by Elizebeth Elliot (really is actually mostly journal entries and letters by Jim Elliot). He struggled with this as well. He wanted churches to carry the NT model for fellowship and leadership, and actually practiced it to some degree. It was going well. Then the congregation voted to forgo it so they could have a service. It was frustrating to him, which is totally understandable.

I have experienced these types of house churches before, but the issue that I struggled with there was that there were no Elders, no deacons--basically no leadership at all.

I often wonder what the middle of the pendulum swing would look like--clear structure and leadership, given over to service and the leading of the Spirit in such a way that while the format is not rigid, the structure Paul called for to the Corinthians, in Timothy, and in Titus are in place and functioning as intended. That every single word that was said was motivated to build up others. That we submit to the leading of the elders for the sake of Christ and His bride AND deliver words for the sake of Christ and His bride.

 2018/5/1 9:09Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5380
NC, USA

 Re:

A major issue in churches like the one I currently attend is that there are two services so automatically there is a limiting of what the HS might want to do in the 1st service.


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Todd

 2018/5/1 9:56Profile









 Re:

Hi Havok,

I think part of the problem is that the vast majority of churches not only do not practice the gifts but do not even believe in them, so there would be no chance of a reverting to 1 Cor 14. The very service itself for the most part, has a design that would make it impossible for most congregations to gather in a Biblical fashion ( 1 Cor 14) even if they wanted to. So we are talking about something radical here.

But lets suppose we do have a willing congregation. What would that look like? Well, some of us may remember the different kinds of professors at college. Some were great teachers and many were not. They all had qualifications, but clearly there were teachers that you could tell were called to their profession. The best professors always included the whole class. They elicited questions on whatever the subject at hand was and through those questions and the response of the class, we were taught. These classes were always invigorating and these teachers had a great skill at keeping the class on topic because in every class there were always left fielders who would ask unrelated questions. To me, this would be the gifting of an elder or teacher in a 1 Cor 14 setting, gifted by the Holy Spirit to do what secular institutions do all the time;

We have fleshed this out. We had a meeting in Missouri a few years ago. People came from all over the country. Greg Gordon and myself were there, as was Brian Long and Blaine and others. There were many pastors there. We had three days of meetings without any agenda at all. We would start around 8 or 9am, gathered around in a large circle and someone would open with a prayer and a Scripture. 12 hours later we would finish. Throughout the course of a day there would be singing, praying, sharing, testimony, laying on of hands and none of it was scheduled, the Holy Spirit was our leader. Now, if a group of men and woman from varying backgrounds, mostly pastors ( who can be the most difficult to deal with because they are used to being in charge) can yield and follow the lead of the Lord through His Holy Spirit for 12 hours, how easy would it be to have this kind of service on a Sunday morning for a few hours or however long it lasted? Not difficult. It is not about the degree of difficulty, it is about yielding and surrendering to the Holy Spirit and having Jesus preeminent in the meeting...........bro Frank

 2018/5/1 11:59





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