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TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5355
NC, USA

 Re:

I will add that I agree with everything you said about God in your post.


_________________
Todd

 2018/4/20 11:53Profile









 Re:

Todd, when you say that their is a possibility that God created an evil Satan, that is exactly what you said.Your trying to be too cute by half on possibly the most serious aspect of who God is. "How can I be clearer?" you ask, there is only one way and that is, acknowledge, without reservation, that God did not create anything evil. If you can do that then you have no argument with me, yourself, or anyone else you might want argue with. Some topics, in my mind Todd, are not open for debate. To say God created evil or birthed it, to me, is rank........here comes that word......heresy...........bro Frank


Todd says "What is the practical difference between creating a being whose role would be to tempt man to sin, as well as kill and destroy, vs. creating a being who initially did not do that but who God knew WOULD do that?"

Todd says "Satan may very well be a fallen angel, but that is merely conjecture. What difference does it make?"

Todd says ". If God has use for a devil, would He not be entitled to create one for His purpose?"

Your own words are clear enough Todd.......bro Frank

 2018/4/20 13:10
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1089
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Is it me or do I smell the upcoming false-dilemma arising?

That if you grant God created Lucifer as good in his original state, it can be conjectured God didn't know Satan will fall, thereby offering another entry of Open Theism into the mix?

So, either way God is diminished; either God created evil or God lacks full knowledge of all future events...this is the dilemma the Open Theist or those who favor it will present.

God is not the author of sin, to say that is blasphemy.
God is not lacking in knowledge of anything, to say that is blasphemy.
The dilemma is false, the biblical alternative is found in Ezekiel and Isaiah...which are not mere poetic attributions, but revelations of the Prince of Evil working his designs behind Pagan Kings.


_________________
Marvin

 2018/4/20 13:30Profile









 Re:

Marvin says...........

"God is not the author of sin, to say that is blasphemy.
God is not lacking in knowledge of anything, to say that is blasphemy. The dilemma is false, the biblical alternative is found in Ezekiel and Isaiah...which are not mere poetic attributions, but revelations of the Prince of Evil working his designs behind Pagan Kings."

Could not agree more. I have never been around anyone who would even suggest the possibility that God created evil.....bro Frank

 2018/4/20 13:38
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5355
NC, USA

 Re:

Frank you obviously have an axe that you want to sharpen against me for some reason.

In my 4/20/18 10:32 am post I explicitly stated:

“I absolutely do not believe that God created evil.”

You seem to be ignoring that statement in order to attack something that you think that I have said but have not.

In fact, my pages and pages of railing against certain tenets of reformed theology that gained so much attention recently was because of my jealousy for the character of God, namely his goodness and holiness. Unfortunately I seemed to be alone in that fight, and either people cannot see or refuse to see the damage that doctrine does to God’s character. I believe it is slanderous., and I said so in that long series of posting.

So for you to now say that I am claiming God created evil or causes men to sin is rather astonishing.

I guess I’ll say it again— I do not believe God created evil nor is he the author of sin.

If that charge can be laid at anybody’s feet it is against the Calvinists. For not only do they hold that God created the vast majority of humans with no ability to seek redemption, he also created an unspeakable place to confine them in for all eternity.


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Todd

 2018/4/20 14:33Profile









 Re:

Todd, lets not play the poor martyr. I quoted you exactly and that is exactly what you were saying. I'll even give you another opportunity: Question Is there any chance at all that God created Satan evil. Lets go with a yes or no on this one Todd.............bro Frank

ps this is not some College dorm discussion, this is the Holy God we are talking about here and there are certain things that are not open for debate, one of them being did God create evil.

 2018/4/20 16:36
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5355
NC, USA

 Re:

Good grief Frank you must be blind. Did you read my last post?


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Todd

 2018/4/20 17:00Profile









 Re:

Todd, you have spent this entire thread refusing to answer simple questions and casting doubt about the possibility of God having created Satan evil and you are still being cute. Let me speak plainly, the Spirit in me was grieved in a way that it has not been for a long time on this site. The quote I used from you, were they not your own words, yet you never said that you were wrong and refused to go back or even answer them. Here they are, they are you words and it has nothing to do with me having some kind if axe to grind, you responding to what you actually said. If you do not want to stand by your words then express that, if not, your words below stand.....bro Frank

Todd says "What is the practical difference between creating a being whose role would be to tempt man to sin, as well as kill and destroy, vs. creating a being who initially did not do that but who God knew WOULD do that?"

Todd says "Satan may very well be a fallen angel, but that is merely conjecture. What difference does it make?"

Todd says ". If God has use for a devil, would He not be entitled to create one for His purpose?"

Your own words are clear enough Todd.......bro Frank

PS I wont comment anymore on this thread, it gives a very un-Godly thought too much airtime

 2018/4/20 17:21
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5355
NC, USA

 Re:

I guess I'll have to quote myself again. I said:

"I guess I’ll say it again— I do not believe God created evil nor is he the author of sin."

When I say God did not create evil, that means God did not create evil. He did not create any evil thing, nor did He create any evil being. I thought that was self explanatory but obviously it was not. My bad.

This whole thing started because there was a question whether the Bible clearly teaches that satan is a fallen angel. This is stated nowhere in scripture, so the idea is conjecture, although reasoned conjecture. I happen to personally lean toward the idea that satan is a fallen angel; however once again we are never explicitly told this in scripture and that idea is imported into the texts from Ezekiel and Isaiah. Those texts are problematic because they EXPLICITLY state who is being described and in each case a specific man is being described.

Some people believe that God created a "tester" to test mankind who was initially incorrupt but became corrupted. The only difference from that idea and the traditional idea is that he was never an exalted angel and head of heaven's worship band in this alternative view. But just like the traditional view, this view is not stated in scripture either.

I think some people like the alternative view because there are difficulties trying to figure out how a holy exalted angel in the presence of God with no evil anywhere could have ever rebelled in the first place. Some of the difficult questions:

---If sin presupposes temptation of some sort, who or what tempted a holy angel to sin?
---If an angel could sin without a devil to tempt him, may we not sin without a devil to tempt us? (I have also heard it asked, "if Satan sinned in heaven, how can we be sure WE will not sin in heaven?")
---If an angel was tempted by evil passions, could he have been holy?

Now it is possible that angels are not holy; I always considered angels to be holy but I may not be right about that.

But Frank--to answer your question, yet again, no I do not believe God created evil, or any evil being, or any evil thing.


_________________
Todd

 2018/4/20 17:51Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3228
Texas

 Re:

Here are just some of my old common sense thoughts, I'm thinking God originally created a perfect world, perfect universe, perfect angels, and perfect man (Adam and Eve).
But, due to free will being allowed by God, the perfect Angel (Lucifer) sinned, and everything went south from there, and most everything is still going south, especially this thread. :-)


_________________
Mr. Bill

 2018/4/20 18:25Profile





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