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Martyr
Member



Joined: 2012/6/10
Posts: 225
United States

 Re:

I don't remember reading that in the bible, about satan being good then turning bad. Jesus said he was a murderer from the beginning


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Tyler

 2018/4/19 21:01Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5355
NC, USA

 Re:

It’s not there Tyler- you’re right.


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Todd

 2018/4/19 21:47Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1244
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: brother Tyler

Ezekiel 28:
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.


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Fletcher

 2018/4/19 21:56Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1092
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:

a little background so you can see the spiritual/physical comparisons and note that great king was simply the pawn of a much greater monarch.
http://biblehub.com/topical/t/tyre_or_tyrus.htm


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Marvin

 2018/4/19 22:58Profile









 Re:

Also, Isa 14 is considered by some to discuss the downfall of Satan. I think if we allow ourselves to believe that God created a murderer and a liar then God Himself is the author of murder and lies, I dont accept that. When NJesus says he was a murderer from the beginning it is very likely that He is speaking of the beginning of the world not Lucifer's creation for again, it is actually a horrific notion to suggest that God would create such a fallen creature. Consider Matthew Henry's take on John 8.......... Bro Frank

"He was a murderer from the beginning, not from his own beginning, for he was created an angel of light, and had a first estate which was pure and good, but from the beginning of his apostasy, which was soon after the creation of man."

 2018/4/20 0:15
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5355
NC, USA

 Re:

Here is an unembellished summary of the available biblical data:

•Jesus and John inform us that Satan was evil "from the beginning" (John 8:44/1 John 3:8)

•Proverbs states that God made everything for Himself...even the wicked for the day of doom (16:4)

•These verses may or may not be addressing the origin of Satan, but if they are, they suggest that God may have created Satan as a divinely-appointed "tester" (the literal meaning of "tempter"), to test His people's loyalty (as He tested Israel with false prophets--Deut.13:1-4).

•Though scripture affirms that some angels have fallen (2 Pet.2:4/Jude 6), no scripture anywhere ever states that Satan is or was himself an angel.

•In the poetic language of Ezekiel (which never mentions Satan), the king of Tyre is said to have been a cherub in the garden of Eden (28:13-14). But later, in the poetic language of the same prophet, the Assyrian is said to have been a tree in the garden of Eden (31:3, 9)! Why should one passage be taken more literally than the other?

•A few verses earlier than the disputed Ezekiel passage (v.2), the ruler of Tyre is specifically said to be a "man" (not an angel). The statements that the king of Tyre is "full of wisdom," "perfect in beauty" and "perfect in all thy ways" are clear hyperboles, which were used earlier in the book about the city of Tyre itself (27:3, 28:3). This "king of Tyre" was corrupted by "trading" or "merchandise" (v.16), a distinctive of the city of Tyre, but hardly fitting any scenario of the activities of an un-fallen angel in heaven.

•Likewise, "Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12) is clearly identified as the "king of Babylon" (Isa.14:4) and as a "man" (v.16). The lofty aspirations of "Lucifer" are exactly those of the builders of the Tower of Babel (the origins of Babylon). Lucifer is nowhere identified with Satan in the Bible.

•The fact that Satan was seen by Christ falling "like lightning from heaven" (Luke 10:18) does not tell us anything about Satan's origin. Jesus did not state a timeframe for what He saw, and might well have been seeing prophetically the downfall of Satan which He later describes in John 12:31, and which John describes in Revelation 12:9---both of which seemingly were fulfilled at the cross (cf. Col.2:15/Heb.2:14).

•None can doubt the devil's ability to "be transformed into an angel of light" (2 Cor.11:14), but this does not tell us any more about his actual nature than we can learn about the true character of his ministers from the fact that they "are transformed into ministers of righteousness" (v.15).


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Todd

 2018/4/20 7:13Profile









 Re:

Todd writes.........

"Here is an unembellished summary of the available biblical data:"

Actually it is a collection of thoughts that agree with your own, it is true you have not embellished them, but why would you, they agree with what you stated earlier.

One of the keys to studying the Word is the safety that we have in knowing that it does not contradict itself, Jesus establishes this and confirms it when He tells us that the word is never broken. With that in in mind Todd, here are a few question for you, and I would simply ask you to be careful with it because we are talking about the Almighty God here who has immutable attributes. Did God create evil? Is God then, the author and creator of sin? If, we would believe what you earlier stated, that God created an evil being from the very start ( you do not have a single scripture to suggest such a horrific thought let alone a multitude of scriptures all agreeing with themselves which is required to create a doctrine) then this is what you would be saying and maybe it is.............bro Frank

 2018/4/20 9:33
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5355
NC, USA

 Re:

Let me ask you this:

What is the practical difference between creating a being whose role would be to tempt man to sin, as well as kill and destroy, vs. creating a being who initially did not do that but who God knew WOULD do that? Now, if you say God did not know that then the dilemma disappears. And if God has no purpose for that being, why does He not get rid of him? There are some things that Christians attribute to God that I do not. I absolutely do not believe God created evil. But God seems to have use for a being that tempts men toward evil. How can we say otherwise? Satan exists.

I have not expressed any thoughts on the origin of satan. Quite frankly I have no idea because there is no scripture that actually tells us, as outlined in the various passages I quoted.

I am not dumb; I realize that the vast majority of Christians believe that satan is a fallen angel but that is only based on the very questionable interpretation of the passages noted.

Satan may very well be a fallen angel, but that is merely conjecture. What difference does it make? He is what he is, whatever that is and we are to resist him with all our might. There is no lack of clarity about that.

ADD: I did not say that God created a being that was evil from the beginning. What I did do was reference a quote from Jesus and a quote from John that says satan was evil from the beginning. What is meant by “beginning” is not 100% clear.


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Todd

 2018/4/20 10:32Profile









 Re:

Todd asks ( but does not answer)..........

"What is the practical difference between creating a being whose role would be to tempt man to sin, as well as kill and destroy, vs. creating a being who initially did not do that but who God knew WOULD do that?"

Todd, do you understand what it means to be the author of sin? To not understand that God is not the author of sin is really scary, I hope no young Christians are reading this for it may sow damnable seeds into their minds, persih even the thought that God is the author of sin. If you think there is no practical difference between God creating an evil being or a being who is created and at some point after that falls, then there is no answer I can give you for their is something very fundamentally lacking in the very question itself. You ask "What difference does it make," if God created evil or Satan was a fallen angel. Let me tell you what difference it makes, if you are correct,and you are not, that God created an evil being then God is not the God of the Bible. Is that stark enough for you Todd. It is one thing to ask a myriad of questions about Scripture, it is something else altogether to be so flimsy and so casual about the Perfection of God and the fact that God is not the author of sin. It should be perfectly clear that if God created an evil being, then God birthed evil and is therefore the Father of evil, the creator of evil, the author of evil. If you wont listen to me, listen to someone you have lauded many times..Billy Graham writes........

Let me assure you that God is not responsible for the evil in the world, nor will he ever do anything evil or wrong. The Bible says, “His works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he” (Deuteronomy 32:4).

Nor does God ever tempt us to do evil or make us do anything wrong. Not only would that be against his perfect nature, but it also would defeat his plans for us, plans for good and not evil. Admittedly God hasn’t told us everything we’d like to know about evil and why it exists, but one thing is clear: God is not the author of evil, nor does he give in to its allure. The Bible says, “God cannot be tempted by evil” (James 1:13).

Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/living/liv-columns-blogs/billy-graham/article88879052.html#storylink=cpy

 2018/4/20 11:33
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5355
NC, USA

 Re:

Whoa there Frank- you seem to be attributing things to me that I have not stated. I did not say God created evil, nor have I said He is the author of sin.

In fact I said: “I absolutely do not believe that God created evil.”

How can I be any clearer than that?


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Todd

 2018/4/20 11:42Profile





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