Sree said:

//Questioning how we speak of the love of God in a clear biblical manner is a good thing too. //

I think it’s the title of the thread that bugs me.

Obviously there are different layers to the onion of Gods love.

But God’s love toward his creation (humans) is unconditional in the sense that he had a plan in place to save them and the Bible says it was out of love that he did this.

Everybody knows (well at least everybody here I hope) that there is no true love relationship possible with God unless there has been repentance and belief.

But I surely don’t think it is wrong t tell unbelievers that God loves them. It’s a true statement, and like I said Billy Graham said it countless times.

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Todd

The love God showed on the cross to all mankind is universal and ultimate. There is no greater expression of the love possible.

Therefore it is a love that has the right to command: repent and believe!

The person who rejects this offer is condemned already.

Read on in John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

It is never Gods fault when someone does not repent.

God no longer loves sinners in hell, he must hate them, otherwise he would not subject them to everlasting and unbearable torment.

God's love is ultimate on the cross.
Ultimate love rejected leads to
God's ultimate wrath in hell.

..but I cannot see God's love as unconditional, rather as ultimate.

//It is never Gods fault when someone does not repent.//

I certainly agree although some folks certainly believe this without saying it so explicitly.

//God no longer loves sinners in hell, he must hate them, otherwise he would not subject them to everlasting and unbearable torment. //

That sounds like a rationalization to me to address an idea that is repellant.

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Todd

Does God love sinners? I believe everybody here agrees that, yes indeed, He does love sinners.

It is the question, "Does God hate sinners?" that is not easy to answer. But the bible, I believe, is clear in its answer - YES! Among many, these 2 verses come to mind.

Psalm 11:5 - The Lord tests the righteous,
But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.

John 3:36 - He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

Again, does God love sinners? Yes
Does God hate sinners? Yes

This contradiction is settled on the cross.

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Rey O.

Here's the 800-pound Calvinistic gorilla. Does Jesus love only the sheep? Or does he love the sheep and the goats?

Or to put it another way. Was the atonement meant only for the sheep? Or was he atonement meant for the sheep and the goats?

Blaine

The only problem Bear is that Calvinism would say that God predestined who the sheep and the goats are. So if God hates the goats as some here suggest that means he created goats to hate. Doesn’t sound very nice to me. In fact it sounds downright nasty.

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Todd

Agreed Todd. That's why I'm no longer a Calvinist. Simply a follower of Jesus.

Blaine

Perhaps it will help to reflect upon John 16:27 -“For the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came from God.” Here the Greek is “phileo” - personal love of intimate friends. This is the relationship Abraham had with God, for he was called “friend” (philos) of God.
Paul wrote “and everyone who does not “phileo” the Lord, be anathema.”

James also wrote that “friendship” (another form of phileo) with the world is enmity with God.”

God IS love, “agape”, but God only “phileos” (befriends) those who “phileo” Him. Agape is a love that God has for the whole world, but phileo is a love between close friends.

God loved (agape) the world, but He phileos only those who phileo Him

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Alan and Dina Martin

Jesus said,

John 10

“Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever does not enter the sheepfold by the gate, but climbs in some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2But the one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen for his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

4When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will flee from him because they do not recognize his voice.”

6Jesus spoke to them using this illustration, but they did not understand what He was telling them. 7So He said to them again, “Truly, truly, I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who came before Me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the gate. If anyone enters through Me, he will be saved. He will come in and go out and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I have come that they may have life, and have it in all its fullness.

11I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12The hired hand is not the shepherd, and the sheep are not his own. When he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf pounces on them and scatters the flock. 13The man runs away because he is a hired servant and is unconcerned for the sheep.

14I am the good shepherd. I know My sheep and My sheep know Me, 15just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father. And I lay down My life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them in as well, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock and one shepherd.

17The reason the Father loves Me is that I lay down My life in order to take it up again. 18No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from My Father.”

19Again there was division among the Jews because of Jesus’ message. 20Many of them said, “He is demon-possessed and insane. Why would you listen to Him?”

21But others replied, “These are not the words of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”


22At that time the Feast of Dedicationa took place in Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was walking in the temple courts in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24So the Jews gathered around Him and demanded, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

25“I already told you,” Jesus replied, “but you did not believe. The works I do in My Father’s name testify on My behalf. 26But because you are not My sheep, you refuse to believe. 27My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. 29My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”