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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Unconditional love - Really?

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rufnrust
Member



Joined: 2010/1/9
Posts: 239
Indiana

 Re:

Amen Bear. God is love. He can't deny Himself.

Rusty


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Russell

 2018/3/7 14:25Profile
narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1047
Germany NRW

 Re:

I knew that this passage would come up and I cannot deny that Jesus showed him his love that moment. The word is indeed agape. Point taken. I think the young man triggered Jesus love for the first steps he took: running to him, kneeling, wanting to do something to attain eternal life. He was on track to break through and Jesus wanted him to succeed.

It was this drawing grace that came out of Jesus that moment because he wanted to draw him against a strong force lurking inside that poor fellow. In the end, the appeal of wealth and honor prevailed in this tug-of-war in his soul.

But where is he now? He is most likely condemned without parole. He went away grieving and is in much stronger grief now. He is under the wrath of God now.

Is that unconditional love? Did Jesus show the same love for both dying thieves, Herod and Pilate?
There was the expression of ultimate love for them at the cross for them - and it was rejected.

 2018/3/7 16:17Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1063
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


I was hoping someone would see what I see when questions like that are asked. You actually have to go back and take a closer look at scripture without adding your own emphasis.

Many texts suggest the love of God while we were enemies of God.
Roms 5. "While we were yet sinners"
John 3 "For God so loved the world he gave"

and other more specific such as bear quoted. "Jesus loved him"

There is no question God loves people while they are yet in their sins, but maybe another question needs to be asked and bears text explicitly denotes the quandary.

Jesus loved him, but he went away, disobedient, unsaved, unwilling.
Telling folks "God loves you" can have the same effect as Jesus love toward the rich young ruler, Jesus loved...the ruler didn't want Jesus.

To Narrow's point, telling folks "God loves you" can in fact be misleading in that if they "know God loves them" it's difficult to send someone you love to hell, therefore they may stay their own course because fear of judgment is mitigated.

But remember the scripture contains more text than this.
"all that the Father giveth me, cometh to me." Jn 6:37.
Another question is raised.."did not the Father give to Jesus the rich young ruler?" He may not have, therefore he didn't come.

The point is, Jesus even when he loved, didn't use that as the motivational point for his calling to the young man.
He actually used the law and compassion to certify whether or not the young man would take up following Jesus with the other 12.


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Marvin

 2018/3/7 16:37Profile
jochbaptist
Member



Joined: 2010/11/24
Posts: 282


 The condition =

Romans 8:38-39 New International Version (NIV)

38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[a] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I see our Father’s Love as conditional in the sense of where it can be accessed - only IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD.
Blessings


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J Kruger

 2018/3/7 17:10Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1700


 Re:

Showing that Jesus on the earth loved sinners (using rich young ruler) does not prove that God loves sinners. Jesus when he was on earth, he was 100% man and 100% God. As a Man he had to obey the command to 'love your neighbor'. If Jesus did not love the sinners around them then he has sinned which does not qualify to be a sacrifice.

But in New Covenant, Jesus gave us a new Command to Love our brothers (John 13:34). This command is higher than 'love your neighbor'. The reason being God shows a special higher standard of love to Born again believers who follow Jesus. Hence we who are born again should also reciprocate the same love towards our brothers.


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Sreeram

 2018/3/7 17:11Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5312
NC, USA

 Re:

//But where is he now? //

Some folks think he was Joseph of Arimathea


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Todd

 2018/3/7 18:22Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1063
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Lots of cats coming out of the bag. The hypostatic union, the covenant of God, God's love for his people, God's universal call, man's unwillingness to say "yes" to Jesus even when Jesus gives a direct invitation to become a disciple. Obedience to the gospel, covenantal promises given to covenantal people.

Roms 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

So what does it mean when God "commends his love toward us?"
Does it mean show, or prove or recommend?

And to Narrow's point; when is the love of God shed abroad in our hearts? Is it when we are in rebellion to God? Or is in reconciliation to God?

If its in our rebellion, is that love toward sinners "as they are" meaning 'unconditionally' or is the point of knowing the love of God meant to be understood only in terms of reconciliation with God?

Can a sinner 'know the love of God' and not be transformed by it? Is there a difference between an unbelievers knowledge of the love of God and a Christians knowledge of the love of God? What makes the difference?

I understand the scripture to hold out to the sinner that God's love can be known and received. But while the sinner is still in his rebellion, the love of God that he might come to know will never be known ( in terms intimate knowledge of God's goodness toward him) until he has been reconciled. This is part of the gospel, that God's love can be known and received, but as Narrow so clearly remarked, telling unbelievers they are 'loved of God' is at best a half/truth and may in fact be a whole lie.

It is God's proper right to prove, show and commend his love towards those whom he has chosen to love and elect. The gospel does not include this secret knowledge, our message is to declare what can be known. "Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners".

When God has done his work of reconciliation this follows.

Roms 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.





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Marvin

 2018/3/7 19:05Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5312
NC, USA

 Re:

This whole thread is ridiculous.

“For God didn’t give a rip about the world but He gave His only begotten son anyway [who was brutalized and crucified by the way ] so that whosoever [ie the folks God can’t stand] believes on Him shall not perish (much to God’s disappointment) but have everlasting life.”

The only problem is that’s not what the Bible says, thank goodness.


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Todd

 2018/3/7 19:12Profile









 Re:

Sree writes

~~~ Showing that Jesus on the earth loved sinners (using rich young ruler) does not prove that God loves sinners. ~~~

Okay I'm not the brightest bulb here. But exactly what does Romans 5:8 mean when it says,

~~~ But God proves his own love toward us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us! ~~~
???

Blaine

 2018/3/7 19:48
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1063
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Todd: Narrow made some pretty strong judgments on just how we should speak of the love of God.

I think this is a good way to lay out what scripture says, I feel the thread if far from ridiculous, reviewing our assumptions is not a bad thing.

Questioning how we speak of the love of God in a clear biblical manner is a good thing too.

It's a fair question to ask " If God loves me, why am I on my way to hell? That doesn't sound like a loving God to me!

It's because unbelievers ( when they have the audacity) sometimes do ask those kinds of questions that discussions on this topic can bring biblical answers.

I personally enjoy these discussions because when I teach new believers and unlearned believers, I get to read and consider viewpoints far different from my own. I want to learn so that I may help the faith of others.

A great brother in the faith once said "Is Jesus Lord?"
I said, yes he is Lord. He said "prove it". It is that kind of questioning that lead me to think clearly why I believe what I believe.

so, here I am.

Im sure not asking questions in order to depict God as an unwilling savior who derives more pleasure in punishment than mercies. What we all want to do is depict God accurately out of love for God.

I hope you will give it a second chance.


_________________
Marvin

 2018/3/7 20:22Profile





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