| Re: |
In Zac's Christian world there is no room for the failures, or the sinners of a bible.
I do not think you even read this article.
This article clearly says this -
So, even if you have been a total failure in the past, God can still make you an example for others to follow.
All these characters whom you have quoted are all old covenant. God still used them. God can even use a donkey. So there is nothing great in being used by God. But God is not pleased with everyone he uses! We are not called to run the race looking at David or Abraham. We are called to run the new covenant race looking at Jesus. If Jesus is our example then we will not take David as an excuse for those who fall in adultery. Nor Abraham as excuse for those who fear and lie.
I want to live the Christian life looking into Jesus, it is a shame that many pastors fall in Adultery and take the excuse of David for their sins. It is very plain that Jesus is not their example. I do not want to hear anyone who follows David, I want to listen to pastors who want to follow Jesus and have the attitude that was in Jesus in them. I am thankful that God has not allowed me to be deceived looking at oLd covenant examples and their failures.
If we think that the life of all Bible writers are acceptable standard then why not live like Solomen? Lets also worship other Gods like he did! God used him as well to write 2 books in Bible.
Nope, keep the list I'll judge for myself according to the Spirit and word who I give respect. My list is larger and Im good with that.
This is exact point of this article. There is no place the writer of the article is saying that everyone should use these filters. He is saying he uses these filters. If you do not agree with him then use your own fliters. Like I said if you do not want a surgeon with sterilized equipment for surgery then choose for yourself a surgeon who uses unclean equipment. It is your choice. You cannot blame the one who wants a surgeon with sterilized equipments!
| 2018/2/11 17:36||Profile|
| Re: |
I have met people who accuse Zac as false teacher. But I have never met anyone who could Biblically prove that any of his teaching is wrong. Even here people disagree with this article but none has any Biblical reference to support their argument! Can anyone here prove one of the point wrong with Biblical reference? I am absolutely convinced that most of the posters here do not come with a teachable spirit which is one of the rules of this forum. They come only to support those who agree with them.
| 2018/2/11 17:57||Profile|
| Re: Sree|
Quote: And some come with a critical and judgmental spirit...
I am absolutely convinced that most of the posters here do not come with a teachable spirit which is one of the rules of this forum. They come only to support those who agree with them.
| 2018/2/11 20:42||Profile|
| Re: |
Sree: When you disagree with a post I make, just come out and say it plainly, you need not erect a whole line of straw-men and then begin burning them down. If you are not conversant in logical fallacies, the idea is some 'terrible thing' is associated with the dissenting author, you then begin to burn up that 'terrible thing' and in so doing equate that with showing you have overcome the dissenters argument. The fallacy lay in the fact the 'terrible thing' was never asserted by the dissenter to begin with, so in short you gave yourself a typing lesson and did nothing to add weight to an argument made in opposition to mine.
I'll make this as plain as I can.
Brother Zac who I esteem as a faithful and good preacher of the gospel gave 7 points on what he considered qualifies a preacher as worthy of his respect.
The issue I took with the article was not in the scripture used to validate and discern good and godly men who seek to be leaders of the Church.
The issue was the addendum affixed to the scriptures which was Zac's approval and respect.
In judging righteous judgment, there must be a discerning that goes past the 'failing' of the person.
Jn8 text with the adulteress is relevant here.
Brother Zac gave room for repentance but only before conversion. You Sree dismiss old testament saints as unfit examples of God's dealing with his people, thats really another subject.
The implication is if one of your children acts out in his teen years... you are unqualified to preach.
If, you fund raise in anyway for God's work you are unqualified to preach,
If you are not building a local Church, but a group of disciples in prison, or in the jungles or at a park in a neighboring city you are unqualified to preach.
This is all fine for Brother Zac, he can have this criteria all he wants and he is welcome to it.
But Scripture principles concerning Pauls teachings on Church leaders do not contain Zac's addendums and therefore I can agree or disagree with whether someone not fitting Zac's narrow qualifications will receive my respect.
Secondly, it is important to recognize respect and loving-one-another walk hand in hand, a minister who falls, a preacher who's children get out of hand, a fund raiser for evangelistic out reaches and such like are all well within the parameters of biblical Christianity and instead of showing disrespect, unloving attitudes towards them, it might behove us to consider they are not our servant's but Christ's servants and in judging them we are essentially judging Jesus too.
Finally in the end you add another fallacy 'poisoning the well', meaning if I decide to stay with my own judgment of the matter I am some how condoning errant preachers, false standards for leadership or some other thing.
This my brother is just silly, it's not true of me or of anyone else according to the verbiage given on this thread.
Truth is, I do want a good preacher, I do want Godly standards and I do have my own judgment of the people I come in contact with and none of those are successfully impugned by the comments you've made.
It's very good you esteem Brother Zac and so do I, but I exercise my God given command to '1Th_5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Brother Zac is not shy about proving all things he hears and I do the same, even with the things he says. The scriptures are above my proving, but Brother Zac's are not.
For some this is such a minor thing it doesn't merit attention, to me It merited a response so I gave one.
| 2018/2/11 23:12||Profile|
| Re: |
Some good posts on this subject and in particular I agree with Marvin's points, which if I understand correctly, upholds the 7 points of Zac Poonen as good and valid characteristics we should be looking for in ourselves and those called to lead in the church. However we also understand that no person is perfect (as Zac states in the article) and therefore God still works through imperfect vessels. This in no way condones sin or failures, but allows God's grace to operate in those who have a sincere heart to obey Him.
As Mr Bill alluded, only Jesus fully meets the perfect standard of the Good Shepherd. All others, however good are only at best hired under-shepherds.
I have often wondered about the fact that we know nothing about the family or children of any of the Apostles. We do know that Peter was married and assume he must have had children. I suspect some of the other apostles also, but there is not one mention of any detail about their wives or children. And you would have thought that at least one of the apostles' children would have taken over the mantle of leading the church (if you go by today's standard), but there is not one I have heard of.
| 2018/2/12 5:57||Profile|
| Re: Marvin|
When you disagree with a post I make, just come out and say it plainly,
Other than the post in which I quoted you, none of my other posts are even directed to you. If they were directed then there is no reason for me to put it as multiple posts. It was my judgement of the forum members here and their lack of teachable spirit. I honestly did not even include you in the list. I apologize if I have hurt you in anyway.
I disagreed with only few things in your post. Infact I even agreed the way you ended your post. One thing I still disagree and believe that you are wrong is here,
Brother Zac gave room for repentance but only before conversion.
There is no part in this article that supports your view. In fact in the article the writer clearly says that "So, even if YOU have been a total failure in the past, God can still make you an example for others to follow."
The YOU here clearly talks to believers who read it. The writer has written this article to believers and not to unbelievers. Knowing his ministry very well, which is discipleship of believers, I am very certain about this fact.
Now assuming you and I are born again believers, the article clearly states that even if we have failed God in our past, which can be even yesterday or in past few seconds. We can still be an example.
I agree that he gave an example of Paul's pre-conversion failure. The reason is in New Covenant we do not have anyone failed after conversion and being filled with the Holy Spirit. If there was a person like that, Zac could have given his example. Also as far as I know Paul was the only person after Jesus who has told others to Follow him. Paul considered himself chief of sinners, yet God made him an example. That is the point of this article.
The point is not being used by God. Like I said before being Used is different from being an example. God used Solemen to write 2 books in Bible, but he was not an example to even Jews, forget about being an example to Christians! Anyone can be used by God even if he is living in open adultery, but they cannot be example for any Christian.
I have no disrespect of any of the Old Covenant saints, I only believe that they cannot be an example because as per Hebrews 12:1, Jesus alone is our example. If I disrespect them then the writer of Hebrews as well has done the same.
I still agree with you that these 7 points are not universal or objective. They are subjective and are also soundly Biblical. One can disagree with Subjective opinions but cannot say that they are unbiblical. There is nothing unbiblical about this article.
| 2018/2/12 6:24||Profile|
| Being an Example|
I think it is easy to misunderstand that this article states that God cannot USE a failed person. I do not even believe that the purpose of this article is usability to God. The purpose of this article is being an example to other believers.
We have to look into certain scriptures to understand Paul's stand here and how he was an example to other believers.
Phil 4-9:- Whatever you have learned and received and heard from me, and seen in me, put these things into practice.
I think this is a very very high standard to achieve. Paul here literally telling the Church to do anything that they see in him. I have not achieved that state yet, but I believe God is not partial only to Paul, he can make anyone achieve that level, if we believe so and worked with God.
I preach the Gospel frequently as well, but I always tell my short comings and make it very clear that I only share the path in which I am now going, it is not that I have reached the destination. But it is a path that God has shown me and I am encouraging others to join me in this path of following Jesus. Many of those who listen to my preaching may be ahead of me in that path, but they still need encouragement to stay in the path.
But Paul here was clearly ahead of anyone in his age in that path of following Jesus, that is why he was able to make such bold statements.
Now God has used me and my preaching and is still using them. I am so thankful to God for his mercy and Grace. But I am still not an example in the way Apostle Paul was, nor I consider my self as an example. But I believe God can make me an example because HE who has called me is faithful. This is how I see this article. It only encourages me to be steadfast in this Goal of becoming an example and not just being satisfied with being used by God. We can easily put our focus on being used by God and forget about the higher standard of being an Example.
| 2018/2/12 6:53||Profile|
| Re: Being an Example|
I think if the title would have been a little different, it may have been better. Maybe something like “7 characteristics of a godly pastor” when he put who he respects and follows, it seems he was putting himself on a pedestal. So I guess in Zac’s world, if you’re a young and upcoming pastor, and be on track to become a Zac, he has no respect for you, or would never give you a listen, that in my world is edging into being prideful. I can appreciate the article, I just think the title takes away from all the good content. I’m not here to judge Zac, but the title of this article seems to me he’s being a little judgemental, and seems to be putting self on a pedestal.
| 2018/2/12 9:21||Profile|
Johannesburg, South Africa
| Re: The Preachers Whom I Respect and Follow by Zac Poonen|
I am not sure where the reaction against brother Zac's article is coming from.
After all, he does say, "preachers I respect and follow" not saying you must do the same, although by implication maybe so. He is also not speaking of Christians in general.
The standards set are all biblical and not too high for a true servant / minister of the gospel...maybe we have just gotten used to lower standards and compromise?
Perhaps this article is also a response to the many so-called "men of God" arising in our day, and the popular preachers of the day, who are often charismatic in personality but a bit underdeveloped character wise.
I think this is a beautiful picture of what being a man of God is meant to be.
Those of us who desire to serve God in this way must know the requirements and earnestly seek that God will make us this type of man.
| 2018/2/13 7:01||Profile|
| Re: William|
Brother William, for the record, I don't have any negative reaction to the standards that God set forth. If you notice, God did not say, The Preachers Whom I Respect and Follow "By God". No, God just laid out the standards, that he felt were good and should be a part of our growth, as we mature in our ministry. Again, the title is what bothers me personally, it say's to me, if you are not at these standards in your ministry, I won't respect you and will not follow you.
Don't every Pastor deserve a little growth time? William, please don't jump on the "men of God arising in our day" bandwagon, there were bad Pastors and good ones since the second one, because Jesus was the first one on earth, that held all these standards. Some folks need to get out of the box, because I can tell you without a doubt, they're some wonderful and Godly pastors right now today, so we're going to stereotype them all, just because we haven't heard of them or listened to them? Are some of us so shallow in our thoughts, that we believe there are no more Zac's out there? if so we have a spiritual issue, it's normally called a critical spirit.
Quote: Brother, could you elaborate on this statement a little more, for us that might not completely understand what you're saying?
Brother William said...After all, he does say, "preachers I respect and follow" not saying you must do the same, although by implication maybe so. He is also not speaking of Christians in general.
| 2018/2/13 10:22||Profile|