SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Promoting Authentic Biblical Christianity.
Looking for free sermon messages?
Sermon Podcast | Audio | Video

Discussion Forum : General Topics : The Danger of looking for sign and wonders without having a theological basis !

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 Next Page )
PosterThread
deltadom
Member



Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1682
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

Hi Dom: We know there are various endings, extra books of Peter, Thomas etc. It's been no debate at all to leave out the long text of Mark where Jesus talks of Satan's years.

***************************
No there is not, the gospel of thomas is a gnostic gospel. If you pick up an ESV and then pick up a NKJV you will find that the End of Mark is different in each text.

****************************************************************************************************
When I am talking about the ending of Mark there is a good book written by
Perspectives on the Ending of Mark
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Perspectives-Ending-Mark-Daniel-Wallace-ebook/dp/B004OR17WK/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1517933603&sr=8-1-fkmr2

Like me if you have worked in the Christian bookshop just go compare translations of the Bible

The Koran does not even compare to the Bible if you listen to Jay Smiths lecture on the history of the Koran. There are so many problems with the koran with such as the koran uses Apochraphical Sources, it mansucripts date 200 hundreads years after the life of muhammed compared to documents such as p45 which date to 30 years after the life of Jesus and other early papyrus.

Jay Smith - The Latest Research On Early Quranic Manuscripts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OPhpWs4QLY

I believe in the supernatural what I do not think is that it should be a test.

*************************************************************

****''' I am not argueing the fact of cessanisionism vs continuism as I am not a Cessationist.'''

Really??? Sure sounds like you are arguing for cessationism bro. I get the impression from your post that you are dead set against miracles.*****

I was healed when I was younger I am not against miracles. I against people who make miracles the thing to look for. As I quoted a verse from scripture where the Antichrist does great signs and wonders even calling fire down from heaven. If we just look for sign and wonders we are easily going to be deceived by the antichrist.

There has also been documented miracles in certain cults, Walter Martin in one of his sermons states that.


****So are you saying that God doesn't confirm His word?**
**
What I am saying is that using Mark 16 is not very good evidence as it is a passage that is disputed!

God confirms his word. The problem that I find is when people do supernatural things that are actually against gods written word and the fact that there is so many prophecies that are so anti biblical in nature and are contradictory.

I wish people could see the Charismatic movement and the Pentecostal Movement from an outside perspective as I am formerly from the Charismatic movement.

There are so many miracles that are not medically verified and I wish people would wake up. If we compare the prophecy of someone like Jeremiah.

Sometimes I feel like Micah who told Ahab not to go into Battle because he would get killed. We are surrounded by false prophets and false teachers.
Compared to the biblical history we have from people like Charles Spurgeon. There are so many Charlatans from people like Bill Johnson, Heidi Baker, The Word of Faith Movement and the NAR Movement. To me this does so much damage to even proclaiming the gospel. When I was younger I had to explain to people why people were laughing crazily and barking like dogs and I had to move schools because of it and churches.

I think it was David Wilkerson who said that most of the current christian books are Candy Floss! They have no substance!


_________________
Dominic Shiells

 2018/2/6 11:37Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3385
East TN (for now)

 Re:

Quote:
by deltadom
What I am saying is that using Mark 16 is not very good evidence as it is a passage that is disputed!


God doesn't need evidence. Anyone worth their salt knows that when God shows up, He puts to silence you AND me and our beliefs about His gifts!!

Quote:
by deltadom
There are so many miracles that are not medically verified and I wish people would wake up. If we compare the prophecy of someone like Jeremiah.


Do I have to medically verify every time God heals my headache?

Brother,

God doesn't need anyone to defend Him. He's been defending Himself for well over 6000 years. We do not have to get worked up over anything, let alone charlatans. He sure doesn't. One day He may, but not today.

God bless you, Deltadom
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2018/2/6 13:15Profile
rufnrust
Member



Joined: 2010/1/9
Posts: 228
Indiana

 Re: The Danger of looking for sign and wonders without having a theological basis !

The kingdom of God is not meat and drink, but righteousness peace and joy in the Holy Ghost.

May I say, it appears that this kingdom is governed, and given life by the Holy Spirit. With a brief study we will find that all who live and function in this kingdom, do so by the grace flowing from the Holy Spirit. Paul said, 'it wasn't me but the grace of God in me'

Eph 4;7 But unto every one of us is given grace. Then follows a list of functions in the body carried out by 'grace' enabled believers. Flesh and blood cannot fulfill these functions.

Being born again, regenerated, (metamorphosis) transformed is not a natural event. It is supernatural. The kingdom of God is a supernatural kingdom.

I am amazed at men who believe themselves to be bible teachers, preachers, etc... who deny the very gospel they claim to be proclaiming, by ignoring the greatest sign and wonder of all which is 'being translated from death to life',born again!

We are signs and wonders walking in love! ' Love your enemies, bless those who persecute you! etc..

Maybe the problem is we have adjusted our theology to match our experience rather than challenging our experience to rise up to a doctrine that says 'heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the leper, cast out devils, freely you have received freely give'

Rusty


_________________
Russell

 2018/2/6 20:04Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

Amen!


_________________
D.Miller

 2018/2/6 21:53Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 965
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:

Hi Dom: hey thanks for the link to Black's book. I'll download it on my kindle.

I am a long ender 9-20, and no doubt I will find an essay that fits my bias. Right or wrong, I am not a scholar so I have to rely on others to make judgments and then I pick one.
Not very scholarly, but all of scripture translation is this way, I am at the mercy of God to send me to the truth.

By the way you would be Micaiah who stood against the false prophets and told King Ahab "if you ever return God never spoke by me"

Brother I spent the first 20 years of my Christian walk in Charismatic/pentacostal Churches.
Some of them were the real deal, real miracles, healings, solid accurate prophecies; others, like old king David needed a young thing to warm him up ( but didn't get warm)
So too the man of the hour with the power worked folks up but the Spirit of God didn't act in accordance with his words.

Edit to add;
you said.."I was healed when I was younger I am not against miracles. I against people who make miracles the thing to look for"

Some of my dear brothers and sisters in Christ have bad habits of 'loaves and fish followers', thy bounce from healing service to miracles service. One dear sister who is one of the kindest and gracious woman I know, is just short of loony, with no discerning about what she hears and sees. I love her dearly and yet I am concerned she feeds off of husks and slop coming from some of those meetings.

These things are out there brother, but do not, and mean it seriously do not focus on only the failings of the Charismatics or the shortcomings of the Pentacostals. If you do this you will become cynical, always expecting to be disappointed and you will be. Cynicism breeds hopelessness and that breeds isolation. The love of God just bottles up inside because cynicism can find no safe place to rest.
There is more to my dear sister in the faith than her lack of discerning, she is a loving and generous woman that is used of God to bless and help others. If I don't recognize that about the Christians I know, there is nothing left but disappointment.
Just some things to consider, not intending to make this personal.

Thanks again for the link.


_________________
Marvin

 2018/2/6 22:37Profile
AbideinHim
Member



Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3297
Louisiana

 Re:

“WE NEED SIGNS & WONDERS!” -David Wilkerson
THE “FULLY PREACHED” GOSPEL
-extract by David Wilkerson.

The apostle Paul said to his generation: “I have fully preached the gospel of Christ” (Romans 15:19). And he described the “fully preached” gospel as one that is much more than words. It is a gospel of words and deeds! “For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ has not accomplished through me, in word and deed” (v. 18).
Paul was saying, “The Gentiles turned to Christ not because of my preaching alone, but because my words were accompanied by miraculous deeds!”

“In mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so
that from Jerusalem and round about to Illyricum I have fully
preached the gospel” (v. 19).

If Paul had preached and taught without signs and wonders
following, his message would not have had its full impact. It would
not have been the gospel fully preached! He said to the Corinthians,
“Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with
all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds”
(2 Corinthians 12:12)

READ THE REST OF BOTH ARTICLES-

http://www.worldchallenge.org/en/node/15633
http://www.worldchallenge.org/en/node/15679


_________________
Mike

 2018/2/7 0:47Profile
deltadom
Member



Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1682
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

I am not against signs and miracles, as the greatest miracle was Jesus death and resurrection on the cross, what I am against is when the primary focus is miracles and not the word of God !

http://www.piratechristian.com/museum-of-idolatry/
If you look through some of the crazy things on this site, it does such damage to the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, things that are happening in our churches where the bible is not even picked up or even read!

When ever does it say in the bible that our focus should be sign and wonders to me it should be the scriptures, else how on earth are you going to tell the true from the false.

As previously working in the Christian bookshop I found it hard to find any good books that I could recommend as the classical section and the bible commentary section I found solace.

People do not understand as the Antichrist is going to do signs and wonders like even calling fire down from heaven. To not be wise enough to discern that the devil can produce miracles as he did during the time of Moses.

To me it is the source that matters.

Matthew 16:4
A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

In the bible People after the feeding of the five thousand did not care about Jesus but more cared about the miracles.
The problem is that during the time of Jesus people saw people raised from the dead but still did not believe Jesus.

To me having a faith and an absolute trust in the scriptures should be higher.

Not all supernatural things are from God! Not all supernatural things are from God! There is a demonic realm we have to be careful of!


Deuteronomy 18:15-22 King James Version (KJV)

15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

16 According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.

17 And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?

22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

I believe in the supernatural, what I am afraid of is that when we run after the supernatural and forget gods word and the bible we may aswell go to the new age movement or the occult or the Christian science movement or Hinduism, when we put experience above the word of God we are in a dangerous territory. To me it is so dangerous in when people want power but do not want it through the correct means this is dangerous.

Ephesians 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

I personally would love miracles to happen more in my life but the thing is I would like to ground myself in the word of God and go through that narrow way and build myself on the solid rock rather than build my house on the sinking sand!

What worries me the most is that when the antichrist shows up is that so many christians will be taken in by his miracles and fall for satan as people seem to be so guillable, if you do not believe me, look at christian book sales and see how gulliable christians are?

Miracles - Dr. Walter Martin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-1sB692TXo




*************************************

Hi Dom: hey thanks for the link to Black's book. I'll download it on my kindle.

I am a long ender 9-20, and no doubt I will find an essay that fits my bias. Right or wrong, I am not a scholar so I have to rely on others to make judgments and then I pick one.
Not very scholarly, but all of scripture translation is this way, I am at the mercy of God to send me to the truth.

By the way you would be Micaiah who stood against the false prophets and told King Ahab "if you ever return God never spoke by me"

Brother I spent the first 20 years of my Christian walk in Charismatic/pentacostal Churches.
Some of them were the real deal, real miracles, healings, solid accurate prophecies; others, like old king David needed a young thing to warm him up ( but didn't get warm)
So too the man of the hour with the power worked folks up but the Spirit of God didn't act in accordance with his words.


Thankyou Marvin for going and checking out my links as most people seem to ignore them and downloading the book!
*******************************************************


_________________
Dominic Shiells

 2018/2/7 16:20Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Dom

Bro.Dom, don’t get discouraged, many like myself read your posts and as time allows read the links but just don’t post in the discussion for whatever reason. In this thread I honestly don’t have anything that I feel I can add to it,.


_________________
D.Miller

 2018/2/7 20:58Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3385
East TN (for now)

 Re: Dom

Quote:
by deltadom
Thankyou Marvin for going and checking out my links as most people seem to ignore them and downloading the book!


I did check out your links, like dohzman said, "many... as time allows read the links but just don’t post in the discussion for whatever reason." Your link is U.K., and in the US, it's for $7.99 on the kindle. Dom, I'm not paying $7.99 it. Personally, I feel I don't have to argue about Mark 16:9-20 because I'm living it, I know it's part of the Word of God and I don't have anything to prove or argue about. :)

And I watched some of those videos also. Dom, I understand that there is a lot, A LOT of craziness in the church world. I've been where you are and got upset about what I couldn't control, trying to preach and teach in order to control it. Be careful, God knows exactly what is going on, this craziness hasn't taken Him by surprise at all. I don't believe He's worried about what His people are going to believe when He comes! :)

God is good God in spite of what is going on!

God bless you brother!
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2018/2/8 5:44Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3385
East TN (for now)

 Re:

Quote:
by delatdom
Mark 16:20 is not in all Bibles, There is a whole debate about the end of Mark as there is three endings ! Do not ever quote to a muslim or anyone who has read bart erhmans books


I didn't want to start a new thread but wanted to add that I found Mark 16:20 is not a stand-alone scripture.

In Acts 14:3 Therefore they stayed there a long time (Iconium), speaking boldly in the Lord, who was bearing witness to the WORD of His grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands.

In Mark 16:20 & here, it was the WORD that God Himself confirmed. So, I think we need to read the Word and find out what "it" says and how God confirms it with signs and wonders.

God bless,
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2018/2/14 11:46Profile





©2002-2019 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy