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Discussion Forum : General Topics : The Danger of looking for sign and wonders without having a theological basis !

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deltadom
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Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1644
Hemel Hempstead

 The Danger of looking for sign and wonders without having a theological basis !


In the bible, The AntiChrist calls down fire from Heaven this means that miracles are not the test for those that come to christ as the antichrist will perform miracles.

The devil is called an Apostle of Light

A common misconception is that if non believers see miracles they will come into church and they will be saved that is completely not true as with Lazarus, the pharisee saw both Lazarus and Jesus rise from the dead but denied it.
In Luke 16:19-31 The rich man says if I am raised from the dead they will believe me but Abraham says unless they believe the scriptures they will not believe you.

People are so sceptical they will deny anything as the bible states that men loves darkness because there ways are evil.

There is such a common problem, people do not think the Devil can produce miracle Jannes and Jambres produced miracles in front of Moses and they could not copy everything.

IN 1 John 4 it says that we should test all spirits and in 1 Corithinas 11 it says that the devil can come as an apostle of light.

We need both Good theology and experience.

As I have been in circles which have been in the opposite where they know there theology but do not know Christ but I do not think it is a prevalent problem in the Western Church.

I think there is a drought in the knowledge of the bible. I know from working in the Christian bookshop I would say that there is a lack of knowledge of the scriptures among pastors and preachers.

In the previous generations most of the culture in UK was immersed in the word of God but the opposite is true as some muslims I have met actually know more about the bible than most Christians, Whilst they learn the bible and how to defend there faith in there mosque, Christians are lazy and do not know how to defend there faith.

Even some Cults do apologetics so they know how to answer Christians. Yet Christians are not knowledgeable enough to know simple subjects such as Hermeneutics or defending doctrines such as the Trinity, the deity of Jesus Christ and why the Scriptures are not corrupted, Why Evolution is wrong.

The Christian Science movement has had documented miracles in there cult. miracles should not be the tester!



2 Corinthians 11

Paul and the False Apostles

1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. 5For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles. 6But though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things.

7Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely? 8I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service. 9And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all things I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself. 10As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia. 11Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth.

12But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. 13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


Revelation 13


The Beast Out of the Earth

11And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

2 Timothy 3:8
8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these teachers oppose the truth. They are men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected.


1 John 4:1-6 New King James Version (NKJV)

4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that[a] Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

John 11 King James Version (KJV)

11 Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.

2 (It was that Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.)

3 Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick.

4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

5 Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.

6 When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the same place where he was.

7 Then after that saith he to his disciples, Let us go into Judaea again.

8 His disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?

9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellowdisciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him.

17 Then when Jesus came, he found that he had lain in the grave four days already.

18 Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off:

19 And many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.

20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: but Mary sat still in the house.

21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.

22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.

23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

28 And when she had so said, she went her way, and called Mary her sister secretly, saying, The Master is come, and calleth for thee.

29 As soon as she heard that, she arose quickly, and came unto him.

30 Now Jesus was not yet come into the town, but was in that place where Martha met him.

31 The Jews then which were with her in the house, and comforted her, when they saw Mary, that she rose up hastily and went out, followed her, saying, She goeth unto the grave to weep there.

32 Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.

33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled.

34 And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see.

35 Jesus wept.

36 Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him!

37 And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?

38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.

39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.

40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.

42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

45 Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.

46 But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done.

47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.

48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.

49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;


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Dominic Shiells

 2018/2/4 9:09Profile









 Re: The Danger of looking for sign and wonders without having a theological basis !

Yes but...

Dominic I would agree that we need to be careful about looking to signs and wonders without a scriptural foundation.

Yet there are certain well known Bible teachers who are reformed in doctrine.  They faithfully expound the scriptures verse by verse expositionally. And yet deny the working of the Holy Spirit.

When Dr. John MacArthur was asked about Muslims coming to faith in Jesus Christ through dreams and visions. His response was as follows...

▪▪▪

I suppose that brings us to the crux of the matter. Do I believe that people in the Muslim world are actually seeing Jesus Christ? No, I do not. Paul stated in 1 Corinthians 15:8 that he was “the last of all” to see the risen Christ. So, I believe that precludes anyone outside of those listed in 1 Corinthians 15 of being able to claim legitimate visions of the resurrected Savior. (The apostle John, of course, was one of those included in 1 Corinthians 15. Accordingly, I don’t believe the book of Revelation sets a precedent for believers to expect genuine visions of Jesus to occur throughout church history.)

Furthermore, it is important to note that these individuals are still unbelievers when they reportedly have these experiences. Consequently, these experiences (whatever they are reported to be) cannot constitute examples of the charismatic gifts having continued, since spiritual gifts are only given to believers (1 Cor. 12:7)—and these people do not come to saving faith until later.

Finally, the New Testament clearly states that the way in which the gospel is spread in this age is through preaching. As Paul explains in Romans 10:14–15, unbelievers will not hear the gospel unless missionaries go to them proclaiming the good news of salvation:

How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”

To claim that the gospel is now being spread through supernatural visions and revelatory dreams (rather than gospel preaching) goes contrary to Paul’s words in those verses.

▪▪▪

The article is taken from a thread I posted about a year ago. The thread is entitled Dreams and Visions Among Muslims???

Cessationist such as Dr John MacArthur would deny the reality of God working among Muslims in dreams and visions.  In their minds Muslims can only be saved by sitting under the polemic expositional preaching of scripture.

Yet men with academic credentials such as David Garrison and Tom Doyle have documented credible cases where Muslims have a dream or a vision of Jesus. Or it might be a series of dreams and visions. The result is they come to Christ and then immerse themselves in the New Testament.

Paul would admonish us,

“‘Look, you scoffers, be astounded and perish; for I am doing a work in your days, a work that you will not believe, even if one tells it to you.’”  Acts 13:41 ESV

Let us not be the scoffers  that sneer at what God is doing to bring in the harvest of souls.  But if anything let us pray that God will use signs and wonders built up on a scriptural foundation to draw many, even among the Muslims, to saving faith in life in Jesus.

Simply my thoughts.

Blaine

 2018/2/4 9:56
deltadom
Member



Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1644
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

I am not argueing the fact of cessanisionism vs continuism as I am not a Cessationist.

What I am trying to state is that the antichrist and others will be able to do things such as call fire down from heaven. Miracles and Signs and Wonders should not be the focus we should always test things against the scriptures.

I listen to a podcast called fighting for the faith and some of the crazy things people come up in the line that the Lord spoke to me and it goes completely against scripture.

I do not think we have a pandamic in people not believing in the holy spirit as even among the reformed movement they believe in the holy spirit and have written lots of literature on the subject. I think we have more a pandemic in biblical illiteracy.

To me if people are falled by the signs and wonders of false teachers, they will easily accept the false signs and wonders of the antichrist when he comes. This is why signs and wonders should not be the acid test of whether someone is sound. A good biblical knowledge should be!


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Dominic Shiells

 2018/2/4 11:33Profile
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Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3380
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 Re:

Quote:
by deltadom
What I am trying to state is that the antichrist and others will be able to do things such as call fire down from heaven. Miracles and Signs and Wonders should not be the focus we should always test things against the scriptures.


It shouldn't be the focus but if the Lord is working with someone then the Lord WILL confirm His word... "And they went forth and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen." Mark 16:20

Quote:
by deltadom
This is why signs and wonders should not be the acid test of whether someone is sound. A good biblical knowledge should be!


I don't know anyone who believes that signs and wonders is 'the' acid test whether someone is sound or not. So in my sphere of influence this would be a mute topic.

God bless,
Lisa


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Lisa

 2018/2/4 22:12Profile
deltadom
Member



Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1644
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

Mark 16:20 is not in all Bibles, There is a whole debate about the end of Mark as there is three endings ! Do not ever quote to a muslim or anyone who has read bart erhmans books

Version Text

Mark 16:8[27] (undisputed text) And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid.
Longer ending 16:9–14[28] Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept. And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not. After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country. And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them. Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
Freer Logion (between 16:14 and 16:15)[29] And they excused themselves, saying, This age of lawlessness and unbelief is under Satan, who does not allow the truth and power of God to prevail over the unclean things dominated by the spirits.[30] Therefore, reveal your righteousness now. — thus they spoke to Christ. And Christ responded to them, The limit of the years of Satan's power is completed, but other terrible things draw near. And for those who sinned I was handed over to death, that they might return to the truth and no longer sin, in order that they might inherit the spiritual and incorruptible heavenly glory of righteousness.
Longer ending 16:15–20[28] And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Shorter ending[29]
And they reported all the instructions briefly to Peter's companions. Afterwards Jesus himself, through them, sent forth from east to west the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation. Amen. (Greek text[31])

In Galations 1
It says even if an angel from Heaven turns up and proclaims a different gospel you should not believe them


Galatians 1 King James Version (KJV)

1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.

21 Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia;

22 And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:

23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.

24 And they glorified God in me.


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Dominic Shiells

 2018/2/5 10:46Profile
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Posts: 3380
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 Re:

Quote:
by deltadom
Mark 16:20 is not in all Bibles, There is a whole debate about the end of Mark as there is three endings ! Do not ever quote to a muslim or anyone who has read bart erhmans books


So are you saying that God doesn't confirm His word?


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Lisa

 2018/2/5 12:45Profile
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2121


 Re: Brother Dom

I think you may have someone perhaps or some specific example that you can give us so we all have a frame of reference we can work by. I know you mentioned a ministry but can you expand and give us some examples? Thank you


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D.Miller

 2018/2/5 13:08Profile









 Re: Bro Dom

''' I am not argueing the fact of cessanisionism vs continuism as I am not a Cessationist.'''

Really??? Sure sounds like you are arguing for cessationism bro. I get the impression from your post that you are dead set against miracles.

Our brother Paul writes on Galatians,

••• So then, does He who provide you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?•••
Gal. 3:5

Also Paul writes in Romans,

••• For I will not presume to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me, resulting in the obedience of the Gentiles by word and deed, in the power of signs and wonders, in the power of the Spirit, so that from Jerusalem and round about as far as Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.••• Rom.15:18-19

Miracles were an essential part of Paul's Ministry to confirm the gospel.

I remember hearing a Pakistani Pastor speak to our church. This pastor said that there are Muslim doctors in Pakistan. Doctors who have been trained at some of the finest medical centers in the West. Oftentimes when they a patient comes to them with an incurable disease. The Pakistani doctor will say go to the Christians they can heal you. And this is a doctor who is a Sunni Muslim.

Again this is the power of signs and wonders confirming the gospel today. That is the gospel where it is readily received in what we call third world nations.

Granted there will be those in the west who will be drawn to the false signs and wonders of the Antichrist. But I think in this nation for the most part, the American church, does not believe in signs and wonders.

Blaine

 2018/2/5 13:38
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 752
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Hi Dom: We know there are various endings, extra books of Peter, Thomas etc. It's been no debate at all to leave out the long text of Mark where Jesus talks of Satan's years.

None of this does any damage to the scriptures, those who have done their homework on the Koran know its had some real revisions over the years, its nothing like the Scriptures where so vast an agreement is to be had.

The great thing about the scriptures is it doesn't leave God's miraculous power in the past, it doesn't confine it to the ending of Mark, it doesn't confine it to the apostles, it doesn't confine it to the gospels. All the explicit scriptures on God's miraculous power permeate the entire bible, God's usage of individuals outside of the apostles and prophets are everywhere both old and new testament.
With that is a full treatment of watchfulness against false teachers, false prophets, false apostles, false Christ's, lying signs and wonders, deceivers, witches and magicians seeking to imitate the working of God in order to gain the notoriety of power that a real man or woman of God has.

It is great advice to be watchful, to discern the spirits, to weigh prophetic words, to consider the lives of those who claim to be apostles and prophets. All of this is done for the sake of Jesus who would have us love one another...for love rejoices in the truth.
Love does believe all things, but all is never inclusive of false Christ's, false teachers, false prophets, false apostles declaring a false gospel. We cannot rightly love anything that God has declared he 'hates'. The Spirit of God will not lead us to love what God hates. God hates every false way Ps 109:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.
The desire to hate the false way is because within the understanding of God's precepts is God's own hatred of a false way.

I absolutely love and believe in the manifestation of God's power by the supernatural occurrences of healing, prophecy etc. I absolutely hate it when God's name is used to give credibility to utterly false teachings, wicked and ungodly men, spurious and fake shows of the miraculous.

It's right and good to be careful and discerning, but skepticism and cynicism are not godly, they are self serving devises used to safeguard status-quo. Status-quo can be just about anything we want to protect.


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Marvin

 2018/2/5 23:04Profile
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Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 993
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 Re:

The preaching of the gospel should be accompanied, if not validated by signs and wonders, for it is the power of God to save. What have you got when you take out all the miracles from the Acts of the apostles or the gospels?

If there is no power behind it, it easily degrades into the letter that kills.

10 days ago I translated for an evangelist, who ministered the gospel and later prophesied of many people. I was all to do with repentance, ministry and the like, and someone got saved.

 2018/2/6 1:26Profile





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