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Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1062
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Bill: you said.

Edit Side Note: For the record before we get to carried away, I left the last church I attended, because the pastor said he doesn't believe Jesus Christ is the only way into heaven, should I have just stayed there, or run like a bear was after me?

Me, ran at him and rebuked him for unbelief and spewing that unbelief under the name of Jesus Church.
Then walked out, warning him, I will not spare, I will not help you in any way, anyone who comes to me I will tell them you are heretical, false and should never be listened to...ever.
The deity of Jesus Christ is interwoven in so many other essential doctrines of the Christian faith, pulling out that pillar collapses it all.

Probably not what most would do, but wolves in sheeps clothing receive no quarter.
An essential of the faith is exactly that, an essential element of Christian belief.
It's not that everyone knows or understands this doctrine when they are new Christians, it's those who should know better by reason of diligent study, they are tasked with guarding those who are yet unaware of falsehood disguised as friendly pastors living in my neighborhood.

You were right to leave and in my opinion right to take with you anyone born of God.


_________________
Marvin

 2018/2/4 21:16Profile
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 785


 Re:

Or we could follow Matthew 18 and rebuke the sinning brother in private. Remember accusations against elders require 2 or 3 witnesses. Then they should be rebuked in the presence of all that the rest may fear.

1 Timothy 5:19-21 "Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear. I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality."

That's how this situation should be handled in any church.

That being said, saying that in this situation is was right to leave is entirely contingent on whether the brother was addressed. He could be a brother, but in serious error. He could be a wolf in sheeps' clothing, not sparing the flock. It is up to us to obey the Bible and do what it says for the sake of the church.

 2018/2/5 12:14Profile
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 785


 Re:

Let me add this:

There was one time that I discovered that my pastor was in sin. He was doing evil, but no one knew it except for me. Guess what, no one still knows about it. I talked with him in private he stopped, and after a few months, he apologized to me. And our relationship is good. The church is flourishing. God is being honored. We didn't have to go through some malicious deacons meetings, or bunches of rumor spreading or any of that to correct the problem. It was handled biblically and to the glory of God.

That is why I am a huge proponent of Biblical church discipline, because I have seen it work again and again and again. If we'd just do what the Bible said about it, then lines would be a lot clearer.

 2018/2/5 12:20Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1062
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Or we publically rebuke him. False doctrine preached from the pulpit is not a 'second hand information' where its an accusation I heard from a 3rd party.

This very thing has happened in a meeting I attended. The leadership, the congregation were just sucking up what this guy said because it was delivered in a scholarly manner. But it was pure ancient heresy. So I stood and said it was heresy and was rejected by the Church long ago and is still a heresy. He didn't like that, and I didn't like doing it, but it needed done. The leadership didn't send me out, in fact I talked to them afterwards and asked them why they didn't engage the error themselves. But that not this thread.

I don't know what Bill's situation was, he didn't elaborate, and I have been confronted myself and have confronted others due to what I heard from the pulpit.
sometimes we just biff it, we don't actually believe that but it came off wrong or we explained it wrong. No problem, corrections are made and we move on. This was not done publically, but afterwards in private, not seeking to reproach him but to simply question.

Other times it's just plain falsehood being repackaged in a new wrapper with 21st century terms serving as the invite.

It's because error like I heard is preached with no regard for God or the people of God that it continues and will in fact poison their minds.

I am not contesting the 'normal' and acceptable mode of confronting error as you quoted in 1 tim. I am saying
Paul did this kind of thing, his situation was somewhat different than mine,
4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

I was not going to give this man place to continue speaking to the Christians, teaching them his error so I confronted him. I did not speak to him in a mean tone, nor did I use insulting verbiage, but I let him know and the congregation know this 'new-revelation' he was teaching was in fact and old heresy rejected by the Church and has been rejected by the orthodox believer. He made it clear he would always preach this and I said, I will always resist it.
This quenched his zeal to minister afterwards to the congregation, which was an answer to my prayer.

Whether the man was a true brother or a wolf was not what the Spirit of God was attempting to show, I was resistant to the doctrine and resistant to his continuation in teaching it.

Havok you are right in that rashness would be inappropriate and unbiblical, and my post no doubt gave that impression.
Thanks for stating the biblical principles.


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Marvin

 2018/2/5 16:12Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3152
Texas

 Re: Marvin

Quote:
I don't know what Bill's situation was, he didn't elaborate

The pastor said, he's not sure Christ is the only way, he said he's not going to say one way or the other, he said he believes it's up to God to decide. He said he's going to let God decide who goes to heaven or hell.


_________________
Mr. Bill

 2018/2/5 19:56Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1062
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Mr Bill: I would change nothing. A man who is supposed to be God's leader and yet not sure Christ is the only way cannot offer Christ, for Christ said I am the way the truth and the life...
He must offer what he has...and whatever he has, is not Christ.

God has decided...

10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

By his own mouth it is evident he has not been with Jesus...for those who have been know "none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

For him, there must be 'another name'.

Sadly he is not alone...for others have the same opinion, and the Apostle gives his judgment from God upon those of contrary opinion.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

A 'gospel' that is unsure of the way of God is a false gospel.


_________________
Marvin

 2018/2/5 22:33Profile
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 785


 Re:

"Whether the man was a true brother or a wolf was not what the Spirit of God was attempting to show, I was resistant to the doctrine and resistant to his continuation in teaching it. "

Brothers,

This is precisely why Matthew 18 exists, because you don't know who is a true brother in error or who is a wolf in sheep's clothing. That is why Jude tells us to make a distinction between them. Think about this:

You are in the midst of a congregation and a man goes up to teach, spouting clear heresy. You stand up in the middle and condemn it as such and half of the people, silently disagree with you. Another half disagrees with the speaker. Now they are divided and YOU drew the line. Now there is a gaping wide foothold for the enemy to easily tear a church apart. One side fights with the other and bitter rumors start and people leave the church and see each other as enemies instead of brothers.

Now, let's take it according to Scripture: He is spouting heresy. You pull him aside and correct his error. He doesn't listen. You bring some brothers along with you, who love the man and are able to divide the word of truth. He doesn't listen. Now it goes before the whole church--the points are laid out, and it goes 1 of 2 ways:

1) He resists and takes some members with him, but it was done in the structured manner. Those who agreed with him initially have heard why it was wrong, why it was incorrect, and a Biblical defense for truth, so now they can make the decision apart from emotions. Those who left, leave because of pride. Those who stay are grieved because of the error and they grow closer together because they see the damage that heresy can do. They are more fervent for one another and love each other more.

2) He publicly recants and everyone forgives one another and he sees the error of his ways and the whole church is strengthened and Jesus Christ is honored.


There is a way to go about this. Heresy abounds in this country and we can STILL follow the Biblical mandates for how things like this should be handled, and we still should until we have exhausted those things.

I know we've gotten way off topic, but we can't be pragmatists. The test for whether what we has done is right is not whether or not it was effective--for you cannot see the full end of things--but whether it was Biblical.

We live in such a pragmatic time for Christianity--our test is whether or not it meets our expected results, and we receive very little consultation form the scriptures. This is so wrong and definitely not how it should be.

Anyhow, I feel like I've killed the horse, so I am not going to beat on him anymore unless yall ask me questions directly. Thanks for the discussion.

 2018/2/6 14:10Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1062
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Havok: a good word and well said.


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Marvin

 2018/2/6 16:23Profile
savedtoserve
Member



Joined: 2011/4/7
Posts: 255


 Re:

This quote from Sylvester Stallone is thought provoking. I like it because it rings very true in my personal experience of being churchless.

"Without the church it’s like having a boat without the rudder. You think you can do it on your own and this may sound pedestrian or trite but I’ll equate it to this: all my life I’ve been involved with exercise but no matter how much—and I know a great deal about the body—you need help. You need a trainer. You need to go to a gym and you need to have the expertise and the guidance of someone else. You cannot train yourself. I feel the same way about Christianity and what the church is. The church is the gym of the soul."

Regardless of what you think of Stallone, this quote isn't meant to condemn, just make you think.

 2018/2/8 15:33Profile
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 785


 Re:

I feel like this has been a really good discussion!

 2018/2/8 15:40Profile





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