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RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
It's talking about Israel and prophets specifically.



I believe this is exactly what Ron was saying.

The passages concerning "Touch Not Mine Anointed" in Pentecostal circles have long been used to place those who have what appears to be a greater anointing or ministry than others. This elevates them into a category that other believers are below. It exalts the person beyond reproach or criticism. This is a terrible thing because no one is beyond correction. Soon the person(s) get by with doing and saying things and the people just keep going along with it even if they know it is false.

My general reaction to folk who use these passages to fortify ministers in falsehood or sin is that it is Jesus Christ THE Anointed one that is being "touched" when error or sin is present. Who cares about mortal man? What about Jesus Christ being TOUCHED? When He is being misrepresented and the like?

The finality of allowing just a few leaders to dictate the direction of a congregation or denomination can only ultimately be error. It is only a matter of time. When you have democratic rules voting folk into positions the will of the people is what wins in the end. And it seems that God will give them who they want. I have been in situations where there were 10-20 votes taken before a group was elected into a 'position'. I would feel better casting lots than doing that and I'm not for casting lots.

What a recipe for disaster? Vote them in and then demand that they "Not be touched".

I have to join with Joshua99 in wondering what the recourse of action to bring correction must be?


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/6/29 8:18Profile
inotof
Member



Joined: 2005/1/7
Posts: 267
Morehead, KY

 Re:

not to seem forward or contrversial but i would say that he needs to probably finish the entire verse of 8:1, most people don't they take the top and leave the bottom. "There is no condemnation to them which are in Christ" and we springboard from there. finish it up and it clearifies what Paul is writing about in 7:21-25. (who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit)

As one member told me here ar SI, sit down with your pastor and air your grievences. You can always comprmise preference, but your can never compramise principal. I don't see having a dsagreement with leadership and discussing it with THEM, as a problem especially if there is error involved..


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David

 2005/6/29 8:27Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

A lot of problems with this stuff I have discovered is that we are seriously lacking in our application of the headship of Christ in the Church. The only "senior" positions spoken of in Scriptures are all in reference to Christ. Christ is alone the Head of the Church; He alone is the Chief Priest; He alone is the Apostle (contrary to man being the Pope); He alone is the Chief Shepherd (Master Pastor, Senior Pastor, Lead Pastor, or whatever other phrase you choose).

I think the reformers really understood this doctrine well when they were on trial for their lives and doctrines before a cardinal or pope, that they appealed to Christ for the final decision.

When we begin to better understand that Christ alone is the head of the Church, we should have no problem with spontaneous manifestations of the Spirit in service. No man no matter how anointed has the right to dominate any Church. Likewise, elders and the like should not feel threatened if another believer calls them on something, or holds them accountable.

So as a believer, if you see somebody over you in the Lord sinning, approach them in private and discuss with them whatever error you might see. If the error is in public, likewise don't be afraid to offer counsel in public. One of the elders at my church was recently teaching Sunday school. He has some word of faith/prosperity gospel leanings in his teachings. AT one point he taught that if you die of sickness, you are not going to heaven. Eventually, following the leading of the Holy Spirit, I simply raised my hand and contradicted what he taught with Scripture, in a loving, gentle, humble way, respecting him as my elder in the Lord.


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Jimmy H

 2005/6/29 11:12Profile
Nellie
Member



Joined: 2004/4/5
Posts: 952


 Re:

I tend to think that if someone says they have "the anointing".. they probably don't.

Amen, Brother :-)

 2005/6/29 13:33Profile
ReceivedText
Member



Joined: 2005/4/22
Posts: 257
Seattle, Washington, USA

 Re:

Quote:
by Nellie on 2005/6/29 10:33:52

I tend to think that if someone says they have "the anointing".. they probably don't.

Amen, Brother



How can you "Amen" this statement? Having the anointing should be the normal experience of the believer. If you think that stating "I have the anointing" is a PRIDEFUL statement, you don't know your Bible. I gave the Scriptures below.

All true saints should have the anointing and know it. To state that you have something that you should possess is not pride.

I don't know your heart. But I think most people make this statement because they don't want men to think they are prideful.

Just remember that the fear of man brings a snare.

RT

 2005/6/29 16:56Profile
ReceivedText
Member



Joined: 2005/4/22
Posts: 257
Seattle, Washington, USA

 Re:

Quote:
did you notice that there is not a single reference in scripture to a church having a pastor?



I debated addressing this issue as well, philologos. You ask a very important question. An honest look at Scripture will reveal that "pastor" is one of many gifts. Jesus is the Great Pastor/Shepherd.

The office in the church that we read of is that of the bishops/elders and deacons. Both are for men only of course.

RT

 2005/6/29 16:58Profile
inotof
Member



Joined: 2005/1/7
Posts: 267
Morehead, KY

 Re:

wow, that is actually amazing, i had never thought about the fact of "pastoring" being a gift. why do we not have a "prophet of the church" i would be intrested to see a thread started about this and have you Rt and Philogos expound on it a bit, or if you wanna pm me thats cool too.


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David

 2005/6/29 17:49Profile









 Re: Joshua...

...sent me a pm of his last post,and I responded privately to him.

I don't feel liberty to continue with this discussion. I think others here are expressing the reality of it. Truth is always easily recieved by those who hear His voice. Untruth or half truth just sticks in your spiritual throat like a cotton ball in the natural. That is the leading of the Holy Spirit who will help us recognize error.

For a pastor to reject challange using the scripture "touch not my anointing" is to me reason enough to change pastors/churches, whatever. Get out of that mess. Pray for them, dust off your shoes and move on down the road.

In Him,

Lahry

 2005/6/29 22:03
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Authority

Here is two messages that may apply very well here:

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=949]A Look At Authority 1: Spiritual & False [/url]

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=944]A Further Look At Authority 2: Delegated Authority[/url] [i]by Stephen Kaung[/i]

[b]Description:[/b] This sermon looks at the nature of authority and also deals with the fact of false authority. It starts with Romans 13 and moves through many Scriptures dealing with authority, submission, and obedience. Kaung shows that only God deserves complete obedience and that he must be obeyed at all costs. The main message of the sermon can be summed up in this quote from the message: "God is the only authority in the Universe. There is no authority whatsoever except God himself -- and what God has given. … There is so much misunderstanding about authority; we mistake something that’s commonly accepted as authorities (sic) without really knowing what authority really is. … God is the one and only authority. Any professed authority that is not from God -- that is not God himself -- is not real authority, because God is the only authority in the whole universe. … The more you give, the more authority you have. The Lord Jesus said, ‘I gave myself a ransom for many.’ Because he gave himself as a ransom for many, the many come under his authority. If you want to be the first among your brothers and sisters, then you have to be a bond-slave, not only to Christ, but to your brothers and sisters.”


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Mike Balog

 2005/6/29 22:58Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Authority

Mike
These two messages from Stephen Kuang are the best thing I have ever heard/read on this topic, and it has been a continual topic of interest to me for several decades! I think he really captures the true nature of biblical authority.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/6/30 2:07Profile





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