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 Re: speaking against the Lord's anointed

I think it's important to look in the New Testament at [i]all[/i] the verses which apply to bringing a complaint against an elder.

I have heard church leaders who plainly do not understand scripture or the gospel, reading the Bible aloud and putting what at best is a human interpretation on certain verses.

As a sister, I'm not sure what the right way forward really is, especially if God seems to use such a person in other realms of ministry. It could be they are not called to preach/teach, but, serving the Lord in another capacity, He will lead them into all truth in His timing, as they are open to 'hear'.

One would not have said Peter was ideally qualified to feed the flock of Christ, but, BECAUSE he was commissioned BY THE LORD, even his mistakes have been brought to light and serve as lessons on the subtle difficulties of getting at God's heart and not only expounding it, but living it out.

Because often a person's livelihood depends on their role as a leader, we must remember that far more is brought into question [i]for them[/i] if the suggestion is made they should not be in that role. They may find the whole prospect humiliating if everyone waits until a big crisis breaks. But, this should be recognised on the horizon, if brethren are going to go together to [i][b]entreat[/b][/i] a leader on [i]several[/i] key matters of interpreting scripture. Remember, you may be undermining his belief system faster than he can bear. This should not even be a possibility, but, there are many issues apart from a normal amount of pride in one's labours, which may come under pressure in such a situation.

My last thought is that there can be times when too many men whom God has called to one sort of ministry or another, meet regularly under one roof, for it to be humanly possible to continue in detailed agreement. It may be a sign of growth, when one begins to see where another has not the revelation which one now has. But, the Holy Spirit is as able to lead a brother into truth as He led you into truth. Maybe there is room for prayer and sharing - maybe an event such a prayer breakfast for the men - which can open natural opportunities to offer what the Lord has shown you, which do not call into question a church leader's credibility.

 2005/6/28 9:43
Mitchy
Member



Joined: 2005/6/26
Posts: 5
Hervey Bay

 Re:

G'day all,

This topic is such where one needs direction from the Holy Spirit. Pastors are there to lead the Church, but we are also encouraged to obey them (1 Timothy 5:17, Hebrews 13:7).

What some Pastors neglect to see (and I stress the word 'some' - not all) is that this command is to the members of the Church. What I mean is that there is no command for the Pastor to dictate over the flock, but to lead them. It is up to us, as members, to obey them.

Notice that in the Old Testament, the term "the Lord's anointed" is only used by Samuel and David; therefore, one wonders if a principle can indeed be taken from this term. In fact, Samuel used it of David's brother (1 Samuel 16:6 "And it came to pass, when they were come, that he looked on Eliab, and said, Surely the LORD'S anointed is before him."), and David used it of Saul AFTER David had been anointed King! (i.e. 1 Samuel 26).

Last of all, the Bible does predict that some Pastors ARE going to dictate rather than lead. 1 Peter 5:1-4 says: "The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away."

Notice that the Pastor is not to be a "lord" over God's heritage, but is to lead by example!

All that was said to say this: As the Pastor is God's leader for the Church, his position is to be respected; however, I cannot see any Bible verse or principle that a Pastor can rely on to announce that he is God's anointed. After all, a Pastor is to be God's humble servant.

If your Pastor is stepping over Scriptural boundaries, you have a responsibility to talk to him; to show him with love and God's Word what he says is wrong. He will have two choices: either change from his ways with humbleness, or will go further into his wrong teaching.

Please ensure, though, that you approach him in a meek and humble spirit.

In Christ,

Mitchy

 2005/6/29 0:34Profile
ReceivedText
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Joined: 2005/4/22
Posts: 257
Seattle, Washington, USA

 Re:

"But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things." [1 John 2:20]

Quote:
We are all the Lord's anointed. No man is beyond correction and accountability.



You nailed it on the head, KingJimmy! We all should boldly declare that we have the anointing that have the Spirit of God. To say that we dont...?? Do you really want to confess that? Listen to the Word:

"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." - 1 John 2:27

Now I will remind you all that in the KJV when "you" is used, it is always plural. (Thee is always singular) This passage speaks to all Christians. We should ALL have the anointing! If you don't, then cry out to the Father and get it!

Quote:
The Scriptures teach that we are all to submit to one another in the fear of the Lord, this includes those in leadership submitting to the rest of the congregation.



Well..No...But you were doing really good up until this statement. The Scriptures NEVER teach mutual submission. It is always "one to another". In other words, everyone has SOMEONE to submit to. Does the husband submit to the wife? Does Christ submit to the church? I hope all of you answer a resounding "God forbid!"

Here is a link to a powerful article on this topic:

[url=http://www.believeonjesus.com/articles/biblicalmw/mythmutualsubmission.asp]"The Myth of Mutual Submission" by Grudem[/url]

Blessings,

RT

 2005/6/29 0:57Profile
ReceivedText
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Joined: 2005/4/22
Posts: 257
Seattle, Washington, USA

 Re:

Quote:
Someone like Benny Hinn tho... a babbling heretic, is not in leadership in the Body of Christ. There is good reason to believe he isnt even in the Body of Christ, but thats not the issue. When a heretic arises, it is important that they are exposed publicly because what they teach is public, and it effects many. Many are deceived by these people today... deceived straight into hell in many cases.



I can agree with you in principle. But you have not stated any specific grievance against Hinn. Yet you have all but discluded him from Christ by your statements. Please include your grievance if you are going to blast a heretic.

Not that I don't have my own issues with things the Hinn says and does. But I hope that I would state my grievance when talking so freely negative about him or anybody. Let's exose the error and pray for the heretic. Though we reject them after the second admonition, we should still pray that their souls will be saved on the day of judgement. If we ever feel comfortable wishing any human soul in hell, that should be a condition of heart that when exposed in us should drive us to our knees in repentance. God help us all.

RT

 2005/6/29 1:02Profile
ReceivedText
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Joined: 2005/4/22
Posts: 257
Seattle, Washington, USA

 Re:

Quote:
G'day all,

This topic is such where one needs direction from the Holy Spirit.
...snip...
Please ensure, though, that you approach him in a meek and humble spirit.

In Christ,

Mitchy



Just had to say Amen to your post. Great stuff, Mitchy.

RT

 2005/6/29 1:15Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
but were not all the nation of Israel "God's anointed"?


Indeed they were...1Chr. 16:22 Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm.
Psa. 105:15 Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm. In the incident recorded here God is the speaker and the anointed are His people. If we take a slightly wider context we find just who the speaker was speaking to...“He suffered no man to do them wrong: yea, he reproved kings for their sakes, Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm.”
(1Chr. 16:21-22, KJVS) This word was addressed to the enemies of Israel and relates to God's protection of His people. It was spoken directly by God to the rulers of nations and their dealings with Israel. Not only was it spoken to them but the context makes clear that it was God's protective word for Israel and that those kings were caused to obey it. It is often used as a rebuke to God's people by a preacher or leader but it was never designed so to be.

It is part of the mistaken notion of 'anointings' for ministry which has made us open to this kind of misapplication. According to to the New Testament all the regenerate are anointed which is much more in line with the original context of the phrase.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/29 6:17Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Notice that the Pastor is not to be a "lord" over God's heritage, but is to lead by example!

did you notice that there is not a single reference in scripture to a church having a pastor?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/29 6:25Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Now I will remind you all that in the KJV when "you" is used, it is always plural. (Thee is always singular) This passage speaks to all Christians. We should ALL have the anointing! If you don't, then cry out to the Father and get it!


Of course it would depend very much on your definition of 'Christian' but this verse does not say that all such 'should have the anointing' but that all such 'do have the anointing' corporately. This truth is repeated in “For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.”
(2Cor. 1:20-22, KJVS)
The 'anointing' in the OT has primarily to do with the consecration to priesthood. Aaron was the 'anointed' priest and his sons received the 'anointing oil' by means of sprinkling rather than by a separate anointing experience. The 'anointing' set apart the High Priest and his sons 'unto the Lord'. The Lord's post-ascension anointing follows this pattern...“But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.”
(Heb. 1:8-9, KJVS) The 'anointed priest' was the High Priest; Lev. 4:3,5,16; 6:22; Num. 35:25 and and his 'anointing' set him above his fellows. This pattern follows through into the next chapter of Hebrews where we have a consistent allusion to the 'father and his sons. The original Levitical priesthood was exclusively 'a father and his sons'...“For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.”
(Heb. 2:11-13, KJVS) The pattern for the OT anointing is the priesthood where in the same day they were 'stripped of the old, bathed in the laver, clothed in garments of beauty and glory, anointed with oil and blood, and had their hands filled to serve God and each other'.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/29 6:45Profile









 Re: I beg your pardon...

There are many different kinds of people who were "anointed" by God in the bible, just as there are today. However, the phrase "touch not mine anointed" is not speaking specifically of the priesthood. It is clearly speaking of the nation Israe. Please see the passage below. If that is not enough, get your bible and look it up. It's talking about Israel and prophets specifically. Israel slew it's prophets, including Jesus. Not good.

1Ch 16:20 And [when] they went from nation to nation, and from [one] kingdom to another people;


1Ch 16:21 He suffered no man to do them wrong: yea, he reproved kings for their sakes,


1Ch 16:22 [Saying], Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm

I do think it important that we only "broad brush" when the scriptures give liberty to do so.

Humbly yours,

Lahry

 2005/6/29 7:47
Joshua99
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 118
Austin Tx.

 Re: Ron B..

What then, would be a course of action toward the pastor at my church, who has misinterputed important verses of scripture,(Romans 7:21-25 and Romans 8:1) what is as bad , he's using the Living bible version, which is helping mislead the people. In his eyes as he teaches, what he values more than intimacy with Christ is with each other. Very humanistic theology. What do you recommend, that I can do, other believers are seeing this too. I have been waiting on the Lord, I have been praying and not moving out on this. Thanks


_________________
Bryan

 2005/6/29 7:51Profile





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