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TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5355
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 Re:

//This is what Cain did:
He brought an offering to the Lord of the fruit of the ground that the Lord had no regard for.//

Why?


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Todd

 2018/1/22 7:06Profile
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 Re:


Quote:
The problem was in the offering he brought.


Surely no “right” offering can make one right with God.

Psalm 51: 16-17
You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it;
you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.
My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart
you, God, will not despise.



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Diane

 2018/1/22 7:48Profile
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 Re:



Diane wrote:
Surely no “right” offering can make one right with God.

Psalm 51: 16-17
You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it;
you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.
My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart
you, God, will not despise.

-------------------


Surely then Cain’s problem must be one of PRIDE.

Gen. 3:22 -- Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil……

Ezek. 28:2 (ESV) -- Because your heart is proud, and you have said, ‘I am a god….’ yet you are but a man, and no god, though you make your heart like the heart of a god—



There was an offering that God had regard for:

Gen. 4:4 -- And the LORD had regard for Abel and for his offering

Heb. 11:4 (ESV) -- By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts.


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Jade

 2018/1/22 10:33Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Surely then Cain’s problem must be one of PRIDE.

Gen. 3:22 -- Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil……

Ezek. 28:2 (ESV) -- Because your heart is proud, and you have said, ‘I am a god….’ yet you are but a man, and no god, though you make your heart like the heart of a god—



Jade, I think this is it! I'll extrapolate a bit:

1. BOTH Cain and Abel were born with the sinful condition and separated from God.

2. For BOTH, “their eyes were opened” ie:
BOTH knew (experienced) a conscious awareness of good and evil.

3. BOTH knew the unbearable experience of shame (their nakedness before God).

4. BOTH needed divine mercy to cover their shame and to fellowship with God.

5. BOTH could never know God’s favour apart from His grace.

HERE’S WHERE THEY DIFFERED:

Abel accepted the depth of his sinful condition.
Cain refused to accept his sinful condition.

Abel’s offering was an expression of gratitude and faith. (Heb 4:11!)
Cain’s offering was an effort to earn his way back to God.

IT WENT DOWNHILL FROM THERE:
1. Cain somehow realized that God accepted Abel’s offering and not his.

2. God showed mercy to Cain by warning him and giving him a chance to repent.

3. Cain clung to his own righteousness (PRIDE).

4. Cain’s sin degenerated into jealousy and murder – all because he refused divine mercy – the same mercy which Abel accepted.


The difference is simply this: WORKS vs FAITH.
Isn’t that the universal problem?
Do we need to complicate Cain’s problem with extraneous explanations?


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Diane

 2018/1/22 15:45Profile
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 Re:


If Dianes explanation is right and my explanations are right, I just back up one step in the ladder and ask...

Who wanted to kick off the grace vs law problems with mankind? Satan. How did he do it? By lying to Eve and telling her, you wont die by that tree, it will make you like a god and you know good and evil.

In her righteous state ( grace per-se) she was tempted to go to the law for more righteousness. When in fact that act would be unrighteous and the law has nothing to offer but the opening of your eyes to what you truly are...and for Adam and Eve, it was nakedness then shame then hiding.
What does the law do? Paul said the letter=law kills.

This has been my contention...Adam and Eve did not need the Tree of good and evil or any of its fruit, their state was already everything that Satan said they needed.


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Marvin

 2018/1/22 15:59Profile
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 Re:

Agree, Diane, it is about WORKS vs FAITH.


A deeper understanding of Cain’s problem can give us more answers for a Christian life that works.


Faith RESTS in God’s GRACE.


Gen. 5:29 -- Now he called his name Noah, saying, "This one will give us rest from our work and from the toil of our hands arising from the ground which the LORD has cursed."


Matt. 11:28-30 -- Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.


Heb. 4:9-10 -- So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.


Eph. 2:8-9 -- For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Verse 10 -- For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


Gal. 5:5 -- For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.



NOT BY OUR WORKS BUT BY BELIEVING AND RESTING IN OUR GREAT HIGH PRIEST IN HEAVEN TO BRING THE LIFE OF HEAVEN INTO US


Heb. 7:18-19 -- on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

Heb. 6:19-20 -- This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil, where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

Heb. 7:15-16 -- And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life.


Excerpts from Andrew Murray’s book “The Holiest of All”:
==================================

This better hope is the access our High Priest in heaven gives us into God's very presence, into the enjoyment of His fellowship and blessedness, even while here on earth.

There is a sanctuary in which God dwells. There was a veil that separated man from God. Jesus came from within to live without the veil, and rend it, and open a way for us. He is now there for us as Forerunner. We may now enter in and dwell there, in the power of the Holy Ghost.

Jesus is in heaven for thee, to secure thee a life on earth in the power and joy of heaven, to maintain the kingdom of heaven within thee, by that Spirit, through whom God's will is done on earth as it is in heaven. All that Jesus is and has, is heavenly. All that He gives and does, is heavenly. As High Priest at God's right hand, He blesses with all heavenly blessings. Oh, prepare thyself, as the glory of His person and ministry in the heavenly places are now to be opened up to thee, to look upon it, and appropriate it all, as thy personal possession. And believe that His High Priesthood not only consists in His having secured certain heavenly blessings for thee, but in his fitting and enabling thee to enter into the full personal experience and enjoyment of them.

Every act of His holy and blessed priesthood, every application of the fruits of His eternal redemption, is wrought in the power of an endless life.

……each work He does for us He is able to do in the power of an endless life. He works it within us as a life, as our own life, so that it is our very nature to delight in God and in His will. His priesthood acts as an inner life within us, lifting us up, not in thought but in spirit and in truth, into a vital fellowship with God. He breathes His own life in us. And He works it in as the power of life, a life that is strong and healthy, because it is His own life from heaven. And He works it in the power of an endless, an indissoluble life, a life that never for a moment need know a break or an interruption, because it is the life of eternity, the life maintained in us by Him who is a Priest for ever, a Priest who abideth continually.

Everything Christ as my High Priest in heaven does for me He does in the power of an endless life, as a Priest who abides continually; what He works can abide continually too. Oh for faith to consider and know and trust Christ Jesus, Priest for ever, Priest after the power of the endless life!

Christ is no outward Saviour, nor can He give us any salvation as an outward thing. All He does for us and to us, He puts into our heart, makes it our life. We need to know that all He does as High Priest for us in heaven. He also does within us as a life He gives. He is Priest, and can save in no other way, than after the power of an endless life. lt is only as a life within us that His priesthood can attain its object.



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Jade

 2018/1/23 7:35Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
just back up one step in the ladder ...


What a brilliant idea, Marvin! There we see the origin of sin.

Quote:
Who wanted to kick off the grace vs law problems with mankind? Satan.

So then, legalism fell into our nature back in the garden – and that’s what poisons our “offerings” , our self-righteous morality. Hey – We’d better not point fingers at the “legalists” because we all have a bit of that original fruit stuck in our teeth!

Quote:
the law has nothing to offer but the opening of your eyes to what you truly are...and for Adam and Eve, it was nakedness then shame then hiding


So true! If you’ve lived in a religious culture where legalism rules strongly, you’ve noticed the effects of shame , the ungodly “cover-ups” pride, comparing, better-than-them- attitudes, guilt trips, unending rules, controllers, toxic shame, striving to win approval, perfectionism, pleasers, condemners, denials.. mental health issues, broken relationships… .

… sounds like our society!!

Quote:
This has been my contention...Adam and Eve did not need the Tree of good and evil or any of its fruit, their state was already everything that Satan said they needed.


No wonder the serpent began his approach with Eve by getting her to assume that God was a mean miser. She was the first legalist. God was not the one who said: “you must not TOUCH it ….” Gen. 3:3 Satan got her thinking that way.

Quote:
Faith RESTS in God’s GRACE.


Those are fantastic verses, Jade. Thanks for posting. They prove that rest is really a freed conscious – freedom from the self-imposed slavery, trying to cover our shame with our own never-ending strivings.


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Diane

 2018/1/23 8:22Profile
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 Re:


No, Diane. Rest is resting from our own works to attain to the glory of God. Rest is resting in our Lord Jesus Christ. Christ in us is our hope of glory.






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Jade

 2018/1/23 9:13Profile
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 Re:

Marvin,

This is a stalemate.

I still say that it is through the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that Adam and Eve moved out of God into themselves and into Satan's kingdom i.e. the world.




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Jade

 2018/1/23 9:19Profile
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Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
No, Diane. Rest is resting from our own works to attain to the glory of God. Rest is resting in our Lord Jesus Christ. Christ in us is our hope of glory.


I suspect we’re “on the same page”, just saying it in different ways. Let me try again:

God’s Rest is freedom [of the conscious] from the slavery of works as a means to absolve guilt, to earn the way back to God/grace/salvation/divine absolution, etc.
It’s the “Sabbath rest” = grace through Christ…. a cleaned heart ….
Yes?

Quote:
This is a stalemate.

I still say that it is through the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that Adam and Eve moved out of God into themselves and into Satan's kingdom i.e. the world.



Marvin, Can you explain this “stalemate” as you see it... or have we pretty well exhausted this topic?



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Diane

 2018/1/23 13:59Profile





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