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dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

Adam was told ,thou shalt not....there is a good possibility that Eve was not present and latter she received those instructions from Adam, hence in the ensuing judgement she became subject to man, her desire, etc... Adam sinned by following Eves council, but Eve was beguiled. They were removed from the garden of eden afterward so they could not eat from the Tree of life, in other words God spared them eternal damnation, note The Lord covered them with an animals skin, hence God Himself performed the first sacrifice and made atonement by it and covered thier nakedness. As to the subject of righteousness it is an action word and kin to a more passive one called justification. When we come to the 10 Commandments given by Moses, the same thou shalt nots were present and had the same effects, something in the heart of man rebel’s against that, but with the 10 Commandments came a process of atonement, or at one mention.
God made away for His people to stay in communion with Him.

Social norms vary greatly around the world and that is a very broad subject and very difficult to equate into an ethic that strives to be a son of god.


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D.Miller

 2018/1/15 19:47Profile
BranchinVINE
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Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 636
Australia

 Re:

Hi Marvin,

You wrote:
“I explained why I believe they were forbidden to eat it.
“’They were already perfect, there was nothing from that tree that they needed’”.

If, as you say, the tree is holy and good and they were perfect, what is wrong in adding more holiness to holiness? Or, what is wrong in eating of a holy tree that will most certainly not ruin their holiness?

I see the tree of the knowledge of good and evil as an evil tree that will ruin their holiness and that is why they must not eat of it.



And you wrote:
“Why not go directly to God herself? She already had perfect access every moment, but Satan needed Eve to act autonomously (act according to her own will and for her own reasons) to gain a wisdom or god-likenss.”
“God is the source of wisdom and godliness for us……
“from the beginning of man Satan's quest to bring men to evil by acting autonomously”

Agree.

Do you disagree that when Satan tempted Eve to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, his intention was to get them to move out of God and into themselves i.e. into the self-life and into Satan’s own kingdom i.e. the world?
In other words:
It was through the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that Adam and Eve were brought out of God and into self-life and into Satan’s kingdom.



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Jade

 2018/1/15 21:52Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5355
NC, USA

 Re:

What if Eve had taken a bite but spit it out before swallowing the fruit?

I am not merely being silly; it goes to the issue of whether it was the fruit itself or the act of eating that was the problem.

Presumably at face value the fruit on the tree of life had to be eaten for it’s benefits to apply.

If Eve was purely innocent with no evil nature how could she possibly know she was being tempted to evil? How did she know what evil was?


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Todd

 2018/1/16 11:10Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

The bigger question is why is she just now seeing this tree? What was the process the devil used to draw her away? How did disobedience enter her thinking?


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D.Miller

 2018/1/16 14:45Profile
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5355
NC, USA

 Re:

I have to assume there is much more to the story than is told- is there any indication how long Adam and Eve were in the garden before the fall? I suppose it could have been a long while.

For example, how did Eve know what “die” meant? God told her she would surely die if she ate of that tree. Presumably there had to be some unrecorded discussion of what “die” meant.

As we know, the surest way to make a very young child do something is to tell him/her not to do it.

I am just wondering if there was not more discussion of the TOKOGAE than what is recorded. Why wouldn’t God have preemptively just placed a flaming cherubim in front of that tree like He did for the TOL?

So many questions.


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Todd

 2018/1/16 15:30Profile
Gloryandgrace
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Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1092
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:

Hi Jade: Some interesting questions.

Allow to summarize.
I'll place my proposition into a syllogism.

Premise 1. God is perfect, Leviticus 19:2
Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the Lord your God am holy
Premise 2. God's works are perfect and all them righteous
Psalm 33:4 For the word of the Lord is right; and all his works are done in truth
Premise 3. God created and placed the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden of Eden.
8 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Conclusion The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is good, righteous itself.

Now to the first question. Jade asked..."what is wrong in adding more holiness to holiness? Or, what is wrong in eating of a holy tree that will most certainly not ruin their holiness?"

The answer is not contained in the qualities of the tree, (whether they be good or bad) the issue is God declared a command:
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

This is THE command that Satan was twisting in such a way that Eve by his lie 'you shall not die' and by his implication Eve could improve her situation 'you shall be as gods'

Now, allow me to divert your attention to another text with very similar words and actions done by Satan to tempt Jesus.
matthew 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

I will draw a parallel here of the genesis account between Satan and Eve and Satan with Jesus.
Satan's temptation to Eve " act on your own behalf and eat to your benefit"
Satans temptation to Jesus "act on your own behalf and eat"

But notice how Jesus handled the situation
"man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God"
What word was given to Adam and later taught by Adam to Eve?
She said it herself "... We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die"

This command is the only command recorded and the only command Eve needed to 'live by', she didn't need anything from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

This is where Satan launched his attack upon Eve; Satan had to get Eve to 'eat' against the command 'not to eat'.

Jesus teaches us that to act autonomously for our own benefit is falling into the temptation of Satan and when doing so, we sin against God. Now this is important,
Jesus was hungry and bread was a real necessity for him, it was a 'good thing in itself'
Eve saw the tree was good, and the trees there were all good in and of themselves.
Where lay the sin? Was it in the nature of the bread? Or in the nature of the tree? It is neither, the sin lay in breaking the command of God...even when that 'thing' is of itself good.

Jade, your final summation
that when Satan tempted Eve to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, his intention was to get them to move out of God and into themselves i.e. into the self-life and into Satan’s own kingdom i.e. the world?
I AGREE.
Then you said...
It was through the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that Adam and Eve were brought out of God and into self-life and into Satan’s kingdom.
I DISAGREE.

The sin was in breaking the command of God "not to eat"
The temptation for Eve and the temptation for Jesus were in most respects identical...but thank God for Jesus Christ and his wisdom and obedience.





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Marvin

 2018/1/16 16:16Profile
BranchinVINE
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Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 636
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 Re:

Hi Marvin,

Firstly ---

Thank you for reminding me of Gen. 2:9.

Gen. 2:9 - Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

I will qualify my statement and say:
The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is evil in the wrong hands.

Gen. 3:22 - Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil……”

Only God is to have the knowledge of good and evil. Only God is to be God.

Edit:
God's knowledge of good and evil is supremely good.
Man's knowledge of good and evil is extremely evil.



Secondly ---

Consider this:

If we tell X, “If you eat this poison you will die.”

And X does not believe us and eats it and dies.

Sure, he died because he ate it.

But is it the “act” of eating or the poison itself that caused his death???



Thirdly ---

What is your understanding of the tree of life?


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Jade

 2018/1/16 22:04Profile
Gloryandgrace
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Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1092
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Hi Jade:

I'll answer quickly on this go round.

Jade said..I will qualify my statement and say:
The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is evil in the wrong hands

I agree in general, presupposing I understand what you've said from previous posts.

Only God is to have the knowledge of good and evil. Only God is to be God.

Edit:
God's knowledge of good and evil is supremely good.
Man's knowledge of good and evil is extremely evil.

Because of our fallen state, our knowledge of good and evil is only according to the revelation by the Spirit we have received ( in accordance with his word)

In a perfect state, the intimate knowledge of evil was un-necessary because there was no way of knowing what it really was. Now that we have fallen, we know it by way of having an intimate association with guilt, shame, remorse, regret, lack, doubt, fears etc.
But how do we even know those things in relation to evil?
Because of a divine communication to our soul by the power of God. God doing this to sinner and saint alike.

Consider this:

If we tell X, “If you eat this poison you will die.”

And X does not believe us and eats it and dies.

Sure, he died because he ate it.

But is it the “act” of eating or the poison itself that caused his death???

In your example the poison itself is by nature deadly. The act of unbelief or the act of eating it are equally deadly.
The tree as I mentioned in the syllogism is pure, because God is pure all he does is pure.
The analogy is not identical (in my mind to the tree) therefore I make the differentiation.

The tree of life is another subject fraught with difficulties because of a lack of explicit information.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is fraught with difficulties as well...but we know it will not be replaced in the garden of God...only the tree of life.

Lastly, I want to make sure everyone is tracking the same. My understandings are drawn from inferences, and some extrapolations. While I believe I am safe in the confines of scripture, I may very well be wrong because some fundamental and explicit truths about the tree are absent in scripture text. I am not here attempting to forge doctrine from inference and extrapolation.


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Marvin

 2018/1/16 22:55Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 636
Australia

 Re:


Eccl. 12:13 - Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

1 John 3:23 - This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

Have faith in Jesus’ Name. Christ is the great “I AM”. Everything we need for life and holiness are in Him.

1 Cor. 1:30-31 -- But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

“Moment by moment I’m kept in His love,
Moment by moment I’ve life from above;
Looking to Jesus till glory doth shine;
Moment by moment, O Lord, I am Thine.”




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Jade

 2018/1/17 3:16Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

I think Eve s participation as having been beguile is not the main focus here, I believe Adam s willful following her into this act is. He loved her enough to willfully disobey The directive given to him by God. Note she added to what The Lord told Adam, she said shall not touch as well as eat, which leads me to believe she received the command second hand but really did not understand what had been delivered to her.. The process by which she was beguiled has not changed , sin still draws away so that it may work it destructive force against our souls.

I believe you may be right as to the time frame and what exactly were the conversations that Adam and the Lord had in the cool of the evening.


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D.Miller

 2018/1/17 16:27Profile





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