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dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

I forgot all about those passages ......by faith..... good reminder


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D.Miller

 2018/1/11 14:52Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 I want to tell you all on this thread

Just wanted to say to every one on this thread thank you. I have received much food for thought and have been reminded about some faith principles I just plain forgot about, this has been to me personally a productive thread.


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D.Miller

 2018/1/11 18:02Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1092
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re: I want to tell you all on this thread


Texts like the Cain and Able story reveal bits and pieces of what it means to bring an offering and it be rejected and yet another's offering accepted. I like to look downstream of human history where I can find much more detail than the Cain and Able passages.

I hope if you peruse this text you can see the same thing, (Cain quality sacrifices) and God's reaction to them.

Isa 1:10 Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

Instead of trying to nail down the specific sin of Cain in this instance (not saying any previous posts were wrong) I like to see where God does discern their hearts and then speak about it plainly so that I have a fuller understanding of 'rejected sacrifices' that can be understood in principle and matched up so I can recognize it in a New Covenant context.

The Cain Able passage is eluded to by the writer of Hebrews ( well done Havok and others) This faith=acceptance of an offering seems key to the opposite in Cain. But it is still bare bones so to speak. As Todd said earlier, lots of room for conjecture.
But Isaiah texts' now that is so full and meaty I come to a full course meal rather than a single morsel given in Genesis 4.

The bible does a constant unveiling of the human heart and the character of God, Genesis gives me a snapshot of a failed sacrifice to God, Isaiah gives me a Rembrandt.



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Marvin

 2018/1/11 18:57Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 636
Australia

 Re:


Hi Marvin,

You wrote:
“But why the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
I can think of a couple of reasons.
That tree could very well be re-labeled Morality tree, Law tree, Code of ethics tree.”


I have a different view.


The Bible does give us a very good illustration of what the knowledge of good and evil is.

The key scriptures are:

Deut. 1:39 - Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it.

Heb. 3:19 - So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.


The children who could enter the land were the ones who had no knowledge of good and evil. Therefore the men who could not enter the land and died in the wilderness were the men who had knowledge of good and evil. Heb. 3:19 says that they could not enter because of “unbelief”. Therefore we can link the “knowledge of good and evil” with “unbelief”.


If we dig into the story of those men who died in the wilderness, we would be able to see the “knowledge of good and evil” and “unbelief” illustrated.

This is their story:

God had delivered the children of Israel out of their bondage in Egypt and Moses had led them to Kadesh-barnea. There Moses said to them:

Deut. 1:20-21 – “You have come to the hill country of the Amorites which the LORD our God is about to give us. See, the LORD your God has placed the land before you; go up, take possession, as the LORD, the God of your fathers, has spoken to you. Do not fear or be dismayed.”

Instead of trusting God to lead them, the men said to Moses:

Deut. 1:22 – “Let us send men before us, that they may search out the land for us, and bring back to us word of the way by which we should go up and the cities which we shall enter.”

So Moses chose 12 men, one from each tribe, and they went to spy the land.

They came back with some of the pomegranates and the figs and a branch with a single cluster of grapes that had to be carried on a pole between two men (Num. 11:23). They gave this report:

Deut. 1:25 – “It is a good land which the LORD our God is about to give us.”

Num. 13:27 – “……it certainly does flow with milk and honey, and this is its fruit.”

And then, their fears and doubts when Moses had said to them “Do not fear or be dismayed”:

Num. 13:28-29 – “Nevertheless, the people who live in the land are strong, and the cities are fortified and very large; and moreover, we saw the descendants of Anak there. Amalek is living in the land of the Negev and the Hittites and the Jebusites and the Amorites are living in the hill country, and the Canaanites are living by the sea and by the side of the Jordan.”

Num. 13:21 – “We are not able to go up against the people, for they are too strong for us."

Num. 13:32-33 - So they gave out to the sons of Israel a bad report of the land which they had spied out, saying, "The land through which we have gone, in spying it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants; and all the people whom we saw in it are men of great size. There also we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak are part of the Nephilim); and we became like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight."

They grumbled in their tents and said:

Deut. 1:27 – “Because the LORD hates us, He has brought us out of the land of Egypt to deliver us into the hand of the Amorites to destroy us.”

Num. 13:4 - So they said to one another, "Let us appoint a leader and return to Egypt."

Moses said to them:

Deut. 1:29-31 – “Do not be shocked, nor fear them. The LORD your God who goes before you will Himself fight on your behalf, just as He did for you in Egypt before your eyes, and in the wilderness where you saw how the LORD your God carried you, just as a man carries his son, in all the way which you have walked until you came to this place.'

But in this matter they did not trust the Lord their God, who went before them on their way, to seek a place for them to encamp, in fire by night and cloud by day, to show them the way in which they should go (Deut. 1:32-33).

Contrast with the faith of Joshua and Caleb:

Num. 14:6-10 - Joshua the son of Nun and Caleb the son of Jephunneh, of those who had spied out the land, tore their clothes; and they spoke to all the congregation of the sons of Israel, saying, "The land which we passed through to spy out is an exceedingly good land. If the LORD is pleased with us, then He will bring us into this land and give it to us-- a land which flows with milk and honey. Only do not rebel against the LORD; and do not fear the people of the land, for they will be our prey. Their protection has been removed from them, and the LORD is with us; do not fear them." But all the congregation said to stone them with stones.


So the Lord said to them:

Deut 1:35 – “Not one of these men, this evil generation, shall see the good land which I swore to give your fathers”

Num. 14:29 – “…..except Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun.”

Deut. 1:39 - Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it.


Heb. 3:19 - So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.


Heb. 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.



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Jade

 2018/1/12 8:57Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1092
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Hi Jade:

Wow: what a nice long post to explain your view, I appreciate that.

There are a couple of things that I cannot reconcile in my own mind regarding your viewpoint.

1. That text is part of Moses rehearsal of all the events from the failure to enter the promised land unto the crossing of the Jordan into the land to possess it.

Vs 39 speaking of their very young children "and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil,"
is refering to their extreme young age...they had yet to be taught at all the language, customs or laws pertaining to them.
(I dont think is a debating point)
But how you incorporated it into the Genesis text feels like apples and oranges to me so in that way it becomes debatable.
You were upfront on your train of thought...
Therefore we can link the “knowledge of good and evil” with “unbelief”.
But when I read the Genesis account Eve's temptation had nothing to do with being tempted to partake of 'unbelief', what she was tempted by was "wisdom, like-god status"
She fully expected knowledge when she partook, she didnt expect 'unbelief' of knowledge from the tree.

Now where it gets a little weedy, Eve did show 'unbelief' in that she disobeyed God's command "thou shalt not eat of the tree...." and chose to believe the Serpents claims which are "you will be as gods, and you will not die" The foundation for all of this lay upon the insinuation "Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Meaning God knows once you eat this fruit you will be as gods...so it will no surprise to God once he sees your "as god" status change.

So, for me, I cannot reconcile unbelief being "knowing good and evil" either from the Genesis account or the Deutoron account.

If what you said was misunderstood by me...well I've had fly-over before, please correct my understanding.

Thanks for the dialog.


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Marvin

 2018/1/12 13:10Profile
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 786


 Re:

I found another verse that helps explain things I think:

Jas 3:13-16  Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom.  But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth.  This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic.  For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there.

Cain most certainly experienced envy and self-seeking

 2018/1/12 20:36Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

I see the test of Adam and Eve as a thou shalt not, the same test that was give through the law, thou shalt not, there is something in the nature of man that responds to that by I will, therefore when Jesus came He laid down things like deny yourself take up the cross and follow me. The whole of the sin nature is born in all of mankind, I understand what has been said about faith , belief, etc but I believe it takes an act of God to save us. I see in scripture Eve beguiled, but Adam sinned, I believe his sin was willful and motivated by his love for Eve over his love for God and because of that 1 act of disobedience the nature of sin, mans self will, has been passes down to all mankind. I have often wondered what the outcome would have been had Adam would have stood steadfast in obedience to God s command not to partake of The Tree of The Knowlege of GoodNd Evil..

I see the sin nature expressed in Cain because he saw God and really needed no faith there, but the belief portion of Hebrews I haven’t reconciled as of yet in my thinking.


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D.Miller

 2018/1/12 21:02Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:



Notice the scriptures:

Genesis 3:4-6 (KJV) 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Notice the scripture says when “she saw” and this seeing came after she was under the temptation of the serpent. He told her that she would not die like God had said, and that God was just keeping her back from her eyes being opened to being on par with the gods in knowing good and evil.

It is plain to see that Eve disobeyed God’s clear command because she listened to the serpent who deceived her into thinking that God was holding her back from something that was good for her to have. She disobeyed God in taking an action independent of God, that’s was forbidden, so that she could become a god in knowing and receiving everything that she thought would be good for her. This is the sin of the devil and this is the sin of the human race to become their own god in deciding what is best for themselves, instead of being submitted to the Almighty Living God in loving obedience.

Notice the scriptures:

Genesis 4:3-7 (KJV) 3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. 6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Hebrews 11:4 (KJV) 4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

It is clear from scripture that the offering that Abel brought to the Lord was an offering of faith that pleased God. The Bible says without faith it is impossible to please God. Cain’s offering was not of faith that pleases God. The scripture also says that what is not of faith is sin.

God accepted the offering of Abel because He came to God the way God prescribed and Cain didn’t. The scriptures says that Cain got angry because what he did wasn’t what God wanted. Now this attitude is sin and leads to more sin which cause Cain to murder his brother. If Cain had been humble before God and brought an offering of faith for his sins, because he was a sinner needing atonement for his sins, then God would have accepted him and his offering.

The biggest problem with mankind today is that they think they know more than the God who gave us His Son Jesus Christ to redeem us from all sin. Many don’t want to submit to God and His way, they want Him to accept them on their terms, but it ain’t gonna happen. Jesus is the way, the truth, the life, and no man can come unto the Father, but only by Him. Jesus paid it all and all to Him we owe! We must come to God through faith in His Son Jesus Christ on the ground of His shed blood, by His atoning sacrifice for our sins.


Blessings...rbanks

 2018/1/12 21:50Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5355
NC, USA

 Re:

Jade if you could succinctly state how you equate “the knowledge of good and evil” with “unbelief” it would help me decide if I am tracking with you. As it stands I am not sure.

If you are likening worldly wisdom to knowledge of good and evil (ie you believe they are synonymous) I think I agree with you. But you must take one step further and equate worldly wisdom to unbelief. I believe that worldly wisdom sets the stage for unbelief, but I don’t think unbelief necessarily follows from worldly wisdom.

To put it another way, a person full of worldly wisdom is perhaps more likely to fall into unbelief.


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Todd

 2018/1/12 23:27Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 636
Australia

 Re:


Hi Marvin,

You said,
“Vs 39 speaking of their very young children "and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil," is refering to their extreme young age...they had yet to be taught at all the language, customs or laws pertaining to them.


Yes……and too young also to eat of the tree that was “desirable to make one wise” to reason and rebel against God.

Mark 10:14-15 - Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.

These were the children who had absolute trust in God who crossed Jordan to take Jericho solely by the grace of God.

How did they do it?

They marched round the city once for 6 days. And on the seventh day they marched round the city 7 times, seven priests blew the trumpets of ram horns they were carrying before the ark, the people shouted and the walls of Jericho fell down.

Heb. 11:30 – By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they had been encircled for seven days.




You also said:
“You were upfront on your train of thought...
Therefore we can link the ‘knowledge of good and evil’ with ‘unbelief’.
But when I read the Genesis account Eve's temptation had nothing to do with being tempted to partake of 'unbelief', what she was tempted by was ‘wisdom, like-god status’
She fully expected knowledge when she partook, she didnt expect 'unbelief' of knowledge from the tree.”


What is faith but the absolute trust and dependence on God that by His divine power He will grant us everything we need for life and godliness (2 Pet. 1:3).

1 Cor. 8:6 (ESV) - yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

When Adam and Eve chose to have their own “wisdom, like-god status” did they not also turn away from faith in God to faith in themselves so that for them there is “us”/”I” from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and “us”/”I” through whom are all things and through whom we exist……?



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Jade

 2018/1/13 0:27Profile





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