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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Sin

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Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1064
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:better sacrifice

God said "ye shall not eat of the tree". The sin from the outset lay in just eating of the tree let alone what the tree might produce in us.

To me, human autonomy, "ye shall be like gods" was the motivating factor. There is in humanity the innate desire to be like his creator but this snake-invite had some twists to it.

Tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Knowing right, wrong, good, evil...all sounds like a tree where one goes to obtain a knowledge of these things. A tree of morality.
Yet, forbidden of God. Why? Because through hindsight learning, we found out what that serpent had in mind.
First, you had to be immoral=disobey God before you partake of a tree giving knowledge of morality.
Secondly, You had to leave God out of the equation like Adam and Eve did. They didn't call out to God, didn't pray, didn't say "hey, lets find out why God's holding back, lets meet up again with him?"
Nope, just straight to the tree autonomously, and of course Adam was in arms-reach of Eve and partook himself.

What happened? They understood in a measure what happened, a sense of guilt, hiding, their human autonomy at first innocent, now guilt-laden.

The way I see it, sin is leaving God out of our lives, seeking after wisdom, knowledge, good, evil, right and wrong and determining by our own understanding how we should thus live.

The knowledge of good and evil is to come by way of the revelation of God, not by self seeking what appears to be good to eat and then partaking of it.

As to Cain's offering, God gave both seed to the sower and bread to the eater and all the beasts of the field.
Yet, Abel's was better...and I think Havok nailed it there.
Faith...but I would not rule out the thought that without blood there is no remission for sin. Grain offerings are not sin-offerings per-se.


_________________
Marvin

 2018/1/9 16:04Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

I see Eve as being beguiled according to scripture, but Adam sinned, I believe it came down to his love for Eve over his love for God, along with obedience. But I am very simplistic in my understanding of this account. I have read some pretty head scratching things about it from a great many different authors but I still tend toward simple. I can see the faith aspect in as much as they could not eat of it in faith so what is not of faith is sin but I really think it goes deeper than that


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D.Miller

 2018/1/9 16:47Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 622
Australia

 Re:


Thank you all for your posts! Much food for thought. Let me think about all you have written and reply asap.

Blessings




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Jade

 2018/1/9 19:31Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1192
Dothan, Alabama

 Re:

Yes Amen, faith is a primary factor but faith in “who” is the question?

Technically everything we do is an act of faith in something or someone but only those things which are done in faith towards God are acceptable to Him.

For example, I have faith that my home will support my family and keep them warm and dry, otherwise I wouldn’t subject them to it-
However that is not necessarily faith towards God...
The same could said for doctors, financial institutions, etc... but just because I believe the doctor can heal my sickness and go in faith to receive said healing doesn’t mean that I am necessarily believing in and acting in faith towards God.

So what is the object of faith?
(For me) Abel believed all that was needed was already provided by God and he acted in faith according to this belief-
Cain on the other hand believed his own efforts would be accounted as righteous and acted in faith according to this belief-

One had faith in God
The other had faith in his own works...

In my reading of scripture (which may be flawed as I can only walk in the light I have at any given time) every time the “act in faith” clause is present it is understood that this is faith in or towards God. Where as the Pharisees acted in faith also, but their faith was in the works they performed to make them righteous and were outright rebuked for it.

Abraham is another example as he offered what was provided by God (Isaac) and not what was made by his own efforts (Ishmael)...


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Fletcher

 2018/1/9 19:41Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

The way you phrased faith and framed it was very enlightening and great food for thought, I will be chewing on that as well as what others have said on this thread for sometime. Reread it a few times more I am sure. God bless


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D.Miller

 2018/1/9 19:57Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 622
Australia

 Re:

Todd wrote:
"I did it my way" is the ultimate statement and description of sin."


Yes.

Isaiah 55:8-9 –
"For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD.
"For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.”

Jer. 10:23 –
I know, O LORD, that a man's way is not in himself,
Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps.

Ps. 37:23 –
The steps of a man are established by the LORD,
And He delights in his way.


_________________
Jade

 2018/1/10 8:10Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 622
Australia

 Re:


Hi William,

You said:
“Instead of loving Him, glorifying Him, trusting Him and obeying Him we want to be Him.
“This is the root of sin.”


Agree.

Ex. 20:3 - You shall have no other gods before Me.
(NLT: You must not have any other god but me.)

Never self/"I" as god, definitely!




_________________
Jade

 2018/1/10 8:16Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 622
Australia

 Re:


Fletcher wrote:

“Cain offered the “fruits” of his own works...
whereas Able took what the Lord had provided and offered from that portion.
This (for me) illustrates quite well the Atonement, where God Himself provided the offering in Jesus- whereas the Pharisees (like Cain) offered the fruits of their religious works. When looked at through the lens of righteousness as a requirement; one is offering what God has provided (His righteousness) while the other is offering the work of their own hand (self-righteousness).
“This seems, to me, to be one of the major patterns addressed throughout the whole of scripture and especially in Paul’s epistles.
At the end of the day, the only acceptable things we have to offer God is what He has given us but all too often we offer what “we have done” which is really just self-righteousness or pride...”



AMEN!

This is a gem!

Thank you, brother Fletcher.


_________________
Jade

 2018/1/10 8:19Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 622
Australia

 Re:


havok20x wrote:
“The book of Hebrews actually clarifies this for us:
“Hebrews 11:4--By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.”


Agree. Faith is the secret.


Fletcher wrote:
“So what is the object of faith?
“(For me) Abel believed all that was needed was already provided by God and he acted in faith according to this belief-
Cain on the other hand believed his own efforts would be accounted as righteous and acted in faith according to this belief-
“One had faith in God
The other had faith in his own works...”


Yes!


_________________
Jade

 2018/1/10 8:21Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 622
Australia

 Re:

Hi Marvin,

You wrote:
“God said ‘ye shall not eat of the tree’. The sin from the outset lay in just eating of the tree let alone what the tree might produce in us.”


You are taking words away from what God said.


God said:
“… from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, ***** for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die*****."


God was not after robotic obedience or God could have just created robots and He would be spared the countless heartaches that errant mankind has given Him since creation.

God created man as intelligent beings and gave man a will that man may align his will with God’s will which is a supremely good will.

Jer. 29:11 - For I know the plans that I have for you,' declares the LORD, 'plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope.’

God’s real concern is that man should choose the right way and have life and not death.

Ezekiel 18:32 - "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD.



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Jade

 2018/1/10 8:24Profile





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