| What is Paul saying in Romans 8:1-14?|
I'm asking for serious input-the Truth in what Paul is saying, especially verses 1, 4, 12-14. I have a conflict at church right now over these scriptures along with Romans 7:21-25. I know what believe in this area of scriptue, I would like your Spiritual insight on these scriptures. Blessings in Christ!
| 2005/6/26 14:05||Profile|
Orange Park, FL
| Re: What is Paul saying in Romans 8:1-14?|
i suppose that some brilliant theologian could answer this question with several pages of discussion....but for a simple layman like myself, here is my short answer: once we invite Christ to come in and dwell with us, we strive to follow our new (Godly) nature- AS THE SPIRIT WILL ENABLE US. although, once Christ comes in and dwells with us, we CAN purposefully follow our fleshly nature by purposely sinning against Him. And, of course, some people say that purposeful sinning can affect our salvation while others say that purposeful sinning cannot affect our salvation. it all depends on whether or not you believe in "once saved, always saved" or not. did i answer your question? hope so! dennis
| 2005/6/26 15:34||Profile|
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Paul is struggling with the inward reality that though He serves God with all the best intentions there seems to be something that exists within His body that continues to repulse Him. It is the fleshly. We all struggle with our fleshly man and if God truly resides in us we will be repulsed by him.
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Ahhh! Grace grace God's wonderful grace! What would we do without it? Apparently we would be forced to only serve the flesh but by His grace we give thanks and serve God.
Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
No condemnation. None. How much condemnation? None. See, prior to being in Christ the law of God was our condeming master. When we stand before God, apart from Christ, the law proves us guilty and condems us.... but in Christ there is no condemnation...meaning the law can no longer condem us..that is so freeing to know that before Christ any effort to obey God's Holy Law results in condemnation..Once in Christ we have the freedom to obey without condemnation...Sure we may stumble but as Paul demonstrates in the prior chapter but know we have the blood of Christ that cleanses us...
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
God's law is righteous in every point in particular. God desires that His righteousness, as reflected in His law (instruction), be demonstrated in us and through us. He desires it so much that He makes it possible through faith in Christ. So that His (Christ) righteousness becomes our righteousness. His righteousness is imputed to us and fulfilled in us, from God's perspective, when we are in Christ.
Now it is a matter of a life time spent focusing on God, after the death of this physical body, will the perfection of this righteousness be actualized because we all err in the way BUT we should daily be growing in our obedience to God's law as His reality that we are the righteousness of God in Christ is manifested in our daily lives
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Ahhh. The call to martyrdom. A daily discipline for Jesus said "take up your cross daily, and follow me". 1st cross then follow. No cross, no follow. The key for me in the first part of the verse is "live". Notice he doesn't say struggle after the flesh for we all do that but if you live after the flesh...meaning does the fleshly man dictate how you live your life. He will certainly try if you don't crucify Him daily.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Spirit led. Which is one in the same as being led by the Word of God for the Spirit will not contradict the Word nor the Word the Spirit. God desires worshippers that "will worship Him in SPIRIT and TRUTH (Word)". This is the right and responsibility of sonship.
So to sum it all up in a few major points
1. The law is not dead as some say but is still active doing it's job which is to prove that there is none righteous no not one
2. God desires that His people live according to His ways as reflected in His law and counts them righteous not by thier obedience but by thier faith
3. An obedient life is the byproduct of the above mentioned reality
4. God enables us to do this by His Spirit
5. God's GRACE is the most awesome force in this univers :-D
| 2005/6/26 20:48||Profile|
I certainly respect your input, carazc, I do believe that it seems some miss the main point of these said verses. First, Paul states 8:1 there is now no condemnation, for those are are in Christ Jesus--"condition"--for those who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. The believer who walks in the flesh or is carnally minded stands condemned. It says the same thing in verse 4 and again, explaining this in verses 12 and 13. He's not talking about physical death here but spiritual death-eternally lost. We have been called by the Lord to put the deeds of the flesh to death, where the flesh is rendered powerless in the believer, because of Christ in us, living through His Spirit by Faith.
Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Also here in verse 24:
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts [color=000033]"have crucified" [/color] My contention in the church today is we preach and allow a watered down gospel that has hardly any power to effect the human heart to live pure and Holy before our God and man. 2 Cor. 7:1 says this
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Who among us is seeing these Truths being walked out in evertday life in our local church for Christ?? If Paul has stated this revelation to the early church fathers, that we can be free from the power of sin, the flesh and the devil: spoken by John in 1john 2:13
I write unto you, fathers, because ye know him who is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the evil one. I have written unto you, little children, because ye know the Father.
1John 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye know him who is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and you have overcome the evil one.
I am willing to except his reality as coming from the Spirit of God, and that they were living above the entanglements of sin, and their flesh.
These Truths have been in long standing within me and I certainly am not condemning anyone who may believes diferently. Only by the Mercy and Grace of my Lord Jesus Christ, do I live and move and have my being. I believe when Jesus said "if you desire to be my disciples, you must take up your cross, deny yourself and follow me, is the straight and narrow path that leads to Life Eternal, and there are few who find it. That is a very sobering thought!
| 2005/6/26 23:03||Profile|
| Re: What is Paul saying in Romans 8:1-14?|
Spurgeon was converted in a little church, to which he came back and heard the minister preach about the verse you mentioned.
"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
Spurgeon heard the preacher describe how Paul was not saved when he wrote this verse. Even as an infantile child of God, Spurgeon knew this was impossible. No unregenerate man would say such as thing as the above verse.
I agree with the other threads, that even after our conversion, we are still tempted by the flesh. Jesus was tempted in every way that we are, but remained sinless. We are to turn from sin whereever it is found.
One who is saved now has a new nature (Spirit), but still drags the old nature around with him (flesh). That's why Paul said, "I die daily." The saved man still has a fight on his hands, even with his own flesh. Anyone that tells you they are not tempted since their salvation is wrong, lying, and deceived.
"My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience."
| 2005/7/5 22:55||Profile|
Washington st. u.S. A.
| Re: What is Paul saying in Romans 8:1-14?|
God is Spirit and must be worshiped in Spirit. the word says to know spiritual things, one must be Spiritual. For God is not in word but in power.
When we turn or repent, we turn from the things of this world and do things Gods way. The law isn't for those who are lawful, its a line to show sin. we would not know that we are doing wrong unless there is a law that tells us what is right and what is wrong.
"If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."
| 2005/7/6 5:37||Profile|
| Re: Carazc|
Very good post, sir. God bless you.
free in Him,
| 2005/7/6 7:42|
| Re: Joshua|
I'm trying to be sure that I understand you correctly. Are you trying to say that anyone who is "saved" walks in sinless perfection in their flesh? Do you? Are you saying that you never do anything wilfully that is sinful?
My righteousness before God, my holiness, my purity rests on the finished work of Jesus Christ and His imparting to me all the favor that He has with the Father.
Anyone who says they have no desire to walk in obedience to God, I question the validity of their claim on salvation. But from what I've learned, there is no such thing as sinless perfection. That is why we must rely on grace. Paul did. We must also. If one ever achieved sinless perfection on their own apart from the charity of God, the message of grace would be finished.
I do not believe in once saved always saved. I do believe I am eternally secure in Christ Jesus. As long as I rest my hope for eternal life in His shed blood for me, I believe I'm saved. If I follow my flesh, my loving Father will chastise me. If I follow His Spirit in me, I will be blessed, loved, and Jesus will manifest Himself to me.
Should we guard our vessels? Absolutely. Do we put to death the deeds of the flesh? No doubt. Are we perfect at it? Hardly. But we simply cannot go back to perfection through works. It is imparted to us by unmerited favor through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ our Lord.
| 2005/7/6 7:54|
What is the 'fleshly'?
Robert Wurtz II
| 2005/7/6 8:34||Profile|
I'm trying to be sure that I understand you correctly. Are you trying to say that anyone who is "saved" walks in sinless perfection in their flesh?
To be clear, I believe the first century church, undestood the power of the first Resurrection, that is, we can walk free from sin. This does not mean sinless perfection, as 1 john 1:8-9 states "when we sin.." I believe the Lord has revealed Himself to many people when they were willing to get serious with Him concerning, falling to the same sin, and being its slave. God's Grace is more than able to deliver us! I do not believe the Lord Jesus Christ said anything toward us, if by Faith it was not possible to live in this world. As Peter states..
2Pe 1:8 For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to be not idle nor unfruitful unto the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 For he that lackes these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten the cleansing from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if you do these things, you shall never stumble:
If we determine to give God ALL of ourselves each day to His Lordship, and summitting to the Holy Spirit's control in our daily life, Day by day, year ny year, He would increase and we would decrease. Resulting in a Holy life, not giving easily to sin, because of His Presence is so much a reality, living from Christ! This is what I'm saying, my friends. Not sinless perfection, yes, we still carry this flesh around, BUT we are to conquer and overcome the flesh making it the slave to Christ, if we are to then overcome the evil one.
1 John 2:13b I write unto you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one.
| 2005/7/6 8:53||Profile|