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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Why I personally don't believe in a Pre Trib Rapture (Resurrection)?

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deltadom
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Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1435
Hemel Hempstead

 Why I personally don't believe in a Pre Trib Rapture (Resurrection)?

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1 Thessalonian 4
12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

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When reading this passage this is the famous passage regarding the so called rapture of the church, notice one thing it does not say anything about the timing? Also note that the Dead in Christ are raised first so this makes it a resurrection.

I think I have been pummelled with this doctrine and called Leaven in the church because I do not believe in this. I came to the opposite opinion through bible study open to hear the other side but I find that you have to believe in three comings of Christ rather than 2.

It also disjoints the rest of scripture, The Synoptic Gospels and Revelation do not make any sense

SO if you read 1 Thessalonians 5

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1 Thessalonians 5King James Version (KJV)

5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;

13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.

14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.

15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

16 Rejoice evermore.

17 Pray without ceasing.

18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

19 Quench not the Spirit.

20 Despise not prophesyings.

21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

25 Brethren, pray for us.

26 Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss.

27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.

28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

In verse 2 it states that this event is the Day of the Lord well in the bible, The Day of the Lord is mentioned elsewhere.

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Isaiah 2:12
For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

Isaiah 13:6
Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.


Isaiah 13:9
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Isaiah 34:8
For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Jeremiah 46:10
For this is the day of the Lord God of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord God of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.

Lamentations 2:22
Thou hast called as in a solemn day my terrors round about, so that in the day of the Lord's anger none escaped nor remained: those that I have swaddled and brought up hath mine enemy consumed.

Ezekiel 13:5
Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the Lord.

Ezekiel 30:3
For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.

Joel 1:15
Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

Joel 2:1
Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

Joel 2:11
And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

Joel 3:14
Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.

Amos 5:18
Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light.

Amos 5:20
Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

Obadiah 1:15
For the day of the Lord is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.

Zephaniah 1:7
Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord God: for the day of the Lord is at hand: for the Lord hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.

Zephaniah 1:8
And it shall come to pass in the day of the Lord's sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.

Zephaniah 1:14
The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

Zephaniah 1:18
Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the Lord's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

Zephaniah 2:2
Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you, before the day of the Lord's anger come upon you.

Zephaniah 2:3
Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the Lord's anger.

Zechariah 14:1
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

Acts 2:20
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
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The day of the Lord is mentioned that the sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and notable day of the Lord it is also mentioned in Joel and in Matthew 24

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Matt 24

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

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In Matthew 24 it mentions that the rapture will happen after the tribulation with the same signs mentioned for the Day of the Lord who knew!!!

The other interesting thing with this passage it posses a problem for the Pre Tribulation rapture postion as in verse 23 and 24 it mentions False Christs and False Prophets performing great wonders and as the lightning comes from the east to the west so shall it be with the son of man.

The problem that you have hear is that False AntiChrists have to come before Jesus returns and that when he returns he will come like Lightning where everyone will see him across the globe.

This immediately rules out a secret coming and puts any comings before then as Antichrist deceptions.

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Matt 24

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The thing is when Jesus returns after the Tribulation it will be universal and it rules out comings before then as Antichrist returns.

The other marker is the trumpets as in it matches up with the seven trumpets in Revelation which is consistence with the other books in the Bible. This passage also deals with the fact of Resurrection if you believe in the Pre Tribulation Rapture you have to take this verse out of context as the fact of an end days resurrection which most of the Jewish nation was a waiting for back in Yeshuas time.



1 Corinthians 15
The Comfort of Christ’s Coming

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.[b]

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.


Revelation 11
Seventh Trumpet: The Kingdom Proclaimed

15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms[a] of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,[b]
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18
The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant[c] was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

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The trumpets match up it is not the Trumpets of Rosh Shana as that was a later Jewish invention. Also you would also to have another seven trumpets.

Then you have major objections such as the doctrine of imminence and the fact that the church is not mentioned in Revelation! Which to me seem really stupid Objections it also lessens

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Revelation 1
9 I, John, both[e] your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and,[f] “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia:[g] to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

John was actually going through tribulation at the time, Also to state that John himself is a representation of the church which is crazy then assuming that the 24 elders are a representation of the church in Revealtion

Revelation 11:16
And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
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So they assume that the word Church or Ekleesia is not mentioned but then assume that John and the 24 Elders is a metophor for the church but when you have mentions of things like the saints, they then divide them into tribulation saints but they are not the church.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander. An argument from silence is not an Argument.

Argument from Silence
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/57/Argument-from-Silence

Why is the church not mentioned in Revelation 4-22?
http://www.solagroup.org/articles/faqs/faq_0027.html

It is assumed by pretribulationists that the church is not present on earth during the events spoken of in the majority of the book of Revelation. This thinking is based primarily on the absence of the word "church" from Revelation 3:22 to Revelation 20:16. If the "church" is not mentioned, it is concluded, she must have been raptured prior to the events written about. Further, it is assumed that the invitation to the apostle John in Revelation 4:1 to "come up here" is a picture of the rapture of the church preceding the events of the 70th week.

My problem is also these arguments are just bad!

God name is not used in the book of Esther so then it should not be used in our bibles. This is a downward spiral and provides grounds for bad scepticism.

The argument for Immanency is the fact is that we always have to be ready for Christs return as there are no signs for the rapture but there are signs for the Second Coming. Why did not Jesus come in the first century for the saints and you have simply missed it as there is no signs.

The bible talks about this is

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2 Timothy 2
14Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
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The rapture is the resurrection. In this passage it states that they have said that the resurrection has already happened and have overthrown the faith of some. The bible talks against the Pre tribulation rapture in this passage.

Which resurrection are you going to be in the first or second as there is only two there is not three as the pre trib position would like us to imagine
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Revelation 20:5
But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
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or you can be part of the second resurrection!!!!
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Revelation 20

The Great White Throne Judgement

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[c] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[d] 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

What I find amazing is that with this doctrine I find it so stupid. People who believe in this doctrine are my brothers and sisters as I have been called Leaven in the church.

2 Thessalonians 2New King James Version (NKJV)
The Great Apostasy

2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[b] is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[d] who now restrains will do so until He[e] is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Stand Fast

13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.
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When my Pre tribulation brethren quote this verse they state that the falling away is the rapture, the problem is you have to read this passage it says in the same verse let no man deceive you and I believe Paul would never say that unless people have been deceived. I believe many have been decieved on this passage.

Because when Jesus returns he will destroy the Antichrist.

1. Apostasy
2. Antichrist Rises
3. Jesus destroy the Antichrist

In this passage there is no clear reference to Jesus secret coming. Most of the Pre trib rapture is just conjecture and at most inference as it does not say it clearly in the actual text, it gives no timing of the rapture of the resurrection other than after the tribulation. Matt 24 and other synoptic passages.

Then you get the thing why would the Lord bring Judgement to his bride, I mean God destroyed Jerusalem, he destroyed Egypt whilst his people where in it. God destroyed the whole planet during the time of Noah.

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The Parable of the Sower

13 On the same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the sea. 2 And great multitudes were gathered together to Him, so that He got into a boat and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.

3 Then He spoke many things to them in parables, saying: “Behold, a sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds came and devoured them. 5 Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. 6 But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them. 8 But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”
The Purpose of Parables

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15
For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should[a] heal them.’[b]

16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
The Parable of the Sower Explained

18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”
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People forget the parable of the sower where it talks about those who go through tribulation, the early church went through tribulation.

Personally I can not survive 1 second of tribulation with out Gods help as i am weak and do not know how I will survive not taking the mark of the beast and surviving with out buying or selling.

Doctrine is things we do not like, Hell exists even thou most people do not like it and not unless you believe in Jesus you will go there. God destroyed the Caananites. We have a god who is not like us who is not after own imagination as that is idolatry.

The doctrine of the Post Trib rapture is not appealing to the masses neither is the gospel.

Then you get stupid objections like why would Jesus take the church up and then bring them down again for the marriage supper of the lamb it assumes that the marriage supper is in heaven. Without actually looking at scripture.
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Revelation 19
The Marriage Supper of the Lamb

6 Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out,

“Hallelujah!
For the Lord our God
the Almighty reigns.
7
Let us rejoice and exult
and give him the glory,
for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
and his Bride has made herself ready;
8
it was granted her to clothe herself
with fine linen, bright and pure”—

for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

9 And the angel said[a] to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.” 10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

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We all need to analyse what we have been taught and have a love of the truth more than what suits are own flesh

With us celebrating Jesus first coming for Christmas, how many are prepared for his second as there are as many prophecies regarding that? Are we ignorant regarding the scriptures and things should not overtake us

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_________________
Dominic Shiells

 2017/12/3 17:19Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2826
Texas

 Re: Why I personally don't believe in a Pre Trib Rapture (Resurrection)?

I just would like to know, if God really meant for his word to be so complicated. My guess is not he didn’t, but man has done his best to make it complicated. Thank God he made the requirements to get into Heaven a lot simpler. Praise Jesus!


_________________
Mr. Bill

 2017/12/3 18:56Profile
mguldner
Member



Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860
Kansas

 Re: Why I personally don't believe in a Pre Trib Rapture (Resurrection)?

That's a lot of bible quoting! I personally hold to a Post Tribulation stance personally. I guess for me its all about practicality. If I'm wrong I get raptured out and no big deal. But if I'm right then I'm mentally, emotionally, and spiritually prepared for the tribulation that is coming knowing God hasn't abandoned me but has me in His protective hand. I believe the great falling away mentioned in scriptures could very easily be those waiting for a rapture that doesn't happen until after all the bad stuff. This isn't my only reasoning for a Post trib stance however it is a strong one that I hold.


_________________
Matthew Guldner

 2017/12/4 10:07Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1290


 Re:

Hi Mguldner,
You've hit on a very important point that Ive commented on alot.That is whether our tribulation opinion can have a negative effect.
You are assuming that the Post Tribulation view has no negative effects,other people assume that the Pre Tribulation Rapture has no negative effects.
urs staff

 2017/12/4 16:13Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2826
Texas

 Re:

My opinion is, it’s just a waste of time worrying about it, because most of us here will probably never know the answer, well unless it happens in the next 100 years.


_________________
Mr. Bill

 2017/12/4 17:33Profile
mguldner
Member



Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860
Kansas

 Re:

That awkward moment it happens today. Boy will your face be red! lol


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Matthew Guldner

 2017/12/5 8:19Profile
mguldner
Member



Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860
Kansas

 Re:

I'm sure there are negative effects of both, I just hold that Post Trib mindset makes me prepare for the coming age, whether it happens in my life time or not. I believe a lot of Pretrib believers don't even bother reading Revelations because "We won't be around" or "I'll be raptured out anyways"

I would be interested in your thoughts on the negative effects of a Post trib mindset, I don't care to refute your position but I am truly curious what your position on it is.


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Matthew Guldner

 2017/12/5 8:22Profile
dspks
Member



Joined: 2006/3/15
Posts: 130
Dakotas

 Re: Knowing vs. Believing

You said, "I believe a lot of Pretrib believers don't even bother reading Revelations because "We won't be around" or "I'll be raptured out anyways."

The Question is:

Do you KNOW that to be true of Pretrib believers OR do you BELIEVE that to be true of Pretrib believers?

You also declare WHY they don't read Revelations!!

Whew!

We must ALWAYS be careful NOT to assume.

Caution must be taken when we take the responsiblity of Establishing Someone's Testimony!

Just tell us what YOU know to be be TRUE!!

 2017/12/5 10:43Profile
mguldner
Member



Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860
Kansas

 Re:

Okay? I know it to be true speaking with people that follow a PreTrib mindset. While my experience maybe limited and I have yet to speak with every single pretrib believer I have had many discussions with a lot of them hence I say "a lot"

The common answer with discussing these these individuals is "Revelations is confusing but it doesn't matter cause we get raptured out anyways"

I apologize for making general statements that wasn't my intention.


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Matthew Guldner

 2017/12/5 11:05Profile
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1420


 Re: Beliefs accompanying the pre-trib view

It's my opinion that many pre-trib advocates remain unaware of beliefs and teachings that have grown out of and now accompany the pre-trib view. Some are as follows:

1) Though saved by faith and washed clean by the blood of Christ no one saved during the tribulation will ever be part of the church.

2) No one saved during the tribulation will be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. No clear answer is ever given answering the question if it is possible to be saved without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. One response is that well they will have a salvation like the OT saints did - saved because of their faith in the promises but not filled with the Spirit.

3) Only certain parts of the Bible, especially the NT, will have any relevance for tribulation believers because large parts of the NT were written only for the church which is now long gone.

4) During the tribulation, Israel will be put back under a system of law since the "age of grace" ended at the pre-trib rapture. Israel and tribulation believers will have to "maintain their own righteousness" by keeping this system of law since they missed their chance to get in during the age of grace. Critics ask then why would they have been saved by faith and the cleansing blood in the first place.

It takes some time and some digging but these are verifiable facts long held and taught by even the most famous of the pre-trib advocates. I'm not trying to sound elitist or condescending but many of the average pew occupying laymen who espouse the pre-trib view are not aware of these beliefs that have grown out of and presently accompany the pre-trib view.


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David Winter

 2017/12/5 11:16Profile





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