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 Re: The First Resurrection

Diane,

As I read your question

Quote:
Isn't that the real purpose of studying the end times?

I heard a sharp, rasping sound in my head, something like that of a sickle being sharpened. I can just make out a field of ripe grain and have the impression of one person in the foreground but there are other workers - just not in my line of vision.

Are you sharp, or is it the word of God which is sharp?

 2005/6/30 12:53
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: The sickle is getting sharpened!!!

Quote:
I heard a sharp, rasping sound in my head, something like that of a sickle being sharpened.



Indeed, you heard the sound of coming judgment!!!

"At that time, I will tell the harvesters: FIRST collect the weeds and tie them in a bundles to be burned; THEN gather the wheat and bring it into my barn." Matt. 13:30

We are not playig with theological toys, but must face a reality of horrendous proportions - as is clearly and repetitively defined in Scripture. Do I hear some "Amens"?
Diane


_________________
Diane

 2005/6/30 13:25Profile









 Re:

Stever said:
I still have a question that I posted earlier, that you have never answered, and would appreciate a reply:

In regards to the pre-tribulation rapture being in error, then please explain to me why Christ has to come down and separate the sheep from the goats ? They would automatically be separated at the rapture- the dead in Christ rising first, and those (in Christ) that are alive next? Who would be left behind but the Non-believers? There would be no need to separate the Sheep from the Goats if this event occured at the SAME TIME AS THE RAPTURE.

Lahry Responded:

You are so close, it's almost forrest and trees kind of view. Why would Christ have to seperate the sheep and the goats? Because they have not yet been seperated. When will this occur? At the end of the rapture. Those who are His will rise up into eternal life and those who are not will be lost eternally. Do you think that at "pre-trib" there will be an assembly of "goats" and they will respond "Lord, when did we see you naked"? I don't. But it can fit at the end of the trib, or perhaps even at the end of the millineum. I just can't make it fit at the beginning. You may be right, but what if you're not. What then?
See, when you realize that there is only one second coming of Jesus Christ, and one first resurrection, it's not difficult at all to understand the chronological order of events. Jesus comes to seperate us from the lost and reign for a thousand years. He shuts up satan, raises the dead, and gathers those that are His, that is, those who are alive, and those who gave up their lived during the trib for their profession of faith in Christ Jesus. These are the ones who will reign with Him for a thousand years, and the bible clearly says so.


Stever's reply:
Thank you for your reply. the problem that I have with your posts is that you never back up your positions with Scripture. How about going through the Scripure that I posted in my previous emails, and then showing me how my interpretation of scripture is incorrect. The importance of justifying Doctrine by Scripture is that it does away with pre-conceived ideas.

What is a pre-conceived idea? Your post above in which you conclude:
"See, when you realize that there is only one second coming of Jesus Christ, and one first resurrection, it's not difficult at all to understand the chronological order of events."

You have come to a conclusion, a "realization" that you cannot back up with Scripture. I have quoted scripture that you have not even addressed. According to you it has all been dismissed. You have not even weighed it in the balance. Why? Because of your preconceived idea mentioned above.

Without backing each view that you present here without Scriptural Support ends up being nothing more than He Said- She Said. Yes it is, No it isn't!

Let's take this post to the place where it is supposed to be focused---GOD'S WORD.

Take each post of mine and answer the Scripture I posted with not only your views, your thoughts, but also by God's word that supports your views, and proves my views in error.

2 timothy 2:15
"15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."


God bless,

Stever



 2005/6/30 19:54









 Re: For Stever

Stever's response:

Again, you are not understanding what I said and the Bible Verses I quoted to back it up. There is only one "First Resurrection" to eternal life. Christ is part of the First Resurrection and started it---we after Him are part of it as well.

Lahry's response:
I see, so you are saying that people have been dying and then being resurrected 3 days later since Christ died. Ah-hum.

Stever cont.
To make it more understandable, the First Resurrection is an EVENT that started with Christ resurrecting from the dead (to eternal life), and will end with the last person resurrected from the dead and raised to eternal life. This "resurrection to eternal life" takes place at different times, but they are all part of the same EVENT:

Lahry's response:
You ask me for scripture. where oh where pray tell me please is the scipture to support this hypothesis?

Stever cont.
1 Cor 15:20:
20. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and BECOME THE FIRSTFRUITS OF THEM THAT SLEPT.

Lahry- Old testament saints.

21. For since by man came death, by MAN (JESUS CHRIST) CAME ALSO THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.
22. For as in Adam all die, EVEN SO IN CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE.

Lahry - did all rise with Christ when He arose?

23. But every man in his OWN ORDER: CHRIST THE FIRSTFRUITS; A F T E R W A R D (afterward) they that are Christ's at his coming.

Lahry - They that are Christs at His coming. Does not say He's coming before the trib. It just says He is coming again, and those that have been resurrected will arise at that time.

Stever:
Paul tells them that they will be delivered from the wrath to come (the Great Tribulation):
1 The 1: 10. And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Lahry - The scripture does not say the wrath that is to come is the tribulation. Wrath is reserved for those who are condemned because they rejected the Savior. It does not say when that wrath will occur.

Stever:
Paul tells them that the rapture will come before the beginning of the "Day of the Lord":
1 Thes 5:2 " 2. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

Lahry - Paul does not mention any rapture. He says it's the "day of the Lord".

Stever:
Paul re-assures them again that God has not appointed them (believers) to the wrath to come (the Great Tribulation):
1 Thes 5:9-11 "9. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10. Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do."

Lahry- The above scripture does not say rapture, nor does it give a time table.

Stever:

Paul admonishes them, and tells them that they should not be ignorant (because they have been ignorant-thus the purpose of this entire letter to them) of this event, that he (Paul) has already taught tehm before:
13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.1 Thes 4:16-17

Lahry - where does it say Pre-trib?

The Firstfruits is the resurrection from the dead of believers in Jesus Christ. Those that believed God and the Messiah to come that lived and died before the Cross, as well as those that believed God and the Messiah that came, and lived and died ( and some still living) after the Cross will all be RESURRECTED IN THEIR OWN ORDER.

Lahry - Scripture reference for the above please.

18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I am comforted. Jesus is coming again. Paul actually believed that Jesus would come again before his generation was gone. In 70 ad there was terrible tribulation and wrath. Jerusalem was destroyed. Must have seemed like the trib to them. But it was not because of the old testament prophecy that was not yet fulfilled and Christ did not return. Neither were there nor has there been since anyone resurrected. That is because of the following:

Rev 19:7 Let us rejoice and shout for joy [exulting and triumphant]! Let us celebrate and ascribe to Him glory and honor, for the marriage of the Lamb [at last] has come, and His bride has prepared herself. [Ps. 118:24.]
Rev 19:8 She has been permitted to dress in fine (radiant) linen, dazzling and white--for the fine linen is (signifies, represents) the righteousness (the upright, just, and godly living, deeds, and conduct, and right standing with God) of the saints (God's holy people).
Rev 19:9 Then [the angel] said to me, Write this down: Blessed (happy, to be envied) are those who are summoned (invited, called) to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he said to me [further], These are the true words (the genuine and exact declarations) of God.
Rev 19:10 Then I fell prostrate at his feet to worship (to pay divine honors) to him, but he [restrained me] and said, Refrain! [You must not do that!] I am [only] another servant with you and your brethren who have [accepted and hold] the testimony borne by Jesus. Worship God! For the substance (essence) of the truth revealed by Jesus is the spirit of all prophecy [the vital breath, the inspiration of all inspired preaching and interpretation of the divine will and purpose, including both mine and yours].
Rev 19:11 After that I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse [appeared]! The One Who was riding it is called Faithful (Trustworthy, Loyal, Incorruptible, Steady) and True, and He passes judgment and wages war in righteousness (holiness, justice, and uprightness). [Ezek. 1:1.]
Rev 19:12 His eyes [blaze] like a flame of fire, and on His head are many kingly crowns (diadems); and He has a title (name) inscribed which He alone knows or can understand. [Dan. 10:6.]
Rev 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dyed by dipping in blood, and the title by which He is called is The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the troops of heaven, clothed in fine linen, dazzling and clean, followed Him on white horses.
Rev 19:15 From His mouth goes forth a sharp sword with which He can smite (afflict, strike) the nations; and He will shepherd and control them with a staff (scepter, rod) of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath and indignation of God the All-Ruler (the Almighty, the Omnipotent). [Ps. 2:9.]
Rev 19:16 And on His garment (robe) and on His thigh He has a name (title) inscribed, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. [Deut. 10:17; Dan. 2:47.]
Rev 19:17 Then I saw a single angel stationed in the sun's light, and with a mighty voice he shouted to all the birds that fly across the sky, Come, gather yourselves together for the great supper of God, [Ezek. 39:4, 17-20.]

Lahry- Please note that the marriage supper of the Lord has not yet occured, but is about too. We are at the end of the tribulation here folks.

Rev 19:18 That you may feast on the flesh of rulers, the flesh of generals and captains, the flesh of powerful and mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all humanity, both free and slave, both small and great!
Rev 19:19 Then I saw the beast and the rulers and leaders of the earth with their troops mustered to go into battle and make war against Him Who is mounted on the horse and against His troops.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was seized and overpowered, and with him the false prophet who in his presence had worked wonders and performed miracles by which he led astray those who had accepted or permitted to be placed upon them the stamp (mark) of the beast and those who paid homage and gave divine honors to his statue. Both of them were hurled alive into the fiery lake that burns and blazes with brimstone.

Lahry- This is the end of the battle of Armagedon.


Rev 19:21 And the rest were killed with the sword that issues from the mouth of Him Who is mounted on the horse, and all the birds fed ravenously and glutted themselves with their flesh.

Lahry- But wait, there's more. The beast and the false prophet are slain, destoyed.

Rev 20:1 THEN I saw an angel descending from heaven; he was holding the key of the Abyss (the bottomless pit) and a great chain was in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he gripped and overpowered the dragon, that old serpent [of primeval times], who is the devil and Satan, and [securely] bound him for a thousand years.

Lahry- Satan is bound for a thousand years, and the millineum is about to begin. End of Trib here.

Rev 20:3 Then he hurled him into the Abyss (the bottomless pit) and closed it and sealed it above him, so that he should no longer lead astray and deceive and seduce the nations until the thousand years were at an end. After that he must be liberated for a short time.
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and sitting on them were those to whom authority to act as judges and to pass sentence was entrusted. Also I saw the souls of those who had been slain with axes [beheaded] for their witnessing to Jesus and [for preaching and testifying] for the Word of God, and who had refused to pay homage to the beast or his statue and had not accepted his mark or permitted it to be stamped on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived again and ruled with Christ (the Messiah) a thousand years. [Dan. 7:9, 22, 27.]

Lahry - The ones slain in these verses are clearly slain during the tribulation. They would not take the mark of the beast.

Rev 20:5 The remainder of the dead were not restored to life again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Lahry - Who was not restored to life? The remainder of the dead. Those that were restored, were those slain during the trib, you know, saints, church folk, set apart ones that some say are not here because the church is raptured.

Rev 20:6 Blessed (happy, to be envied) and holy (spiritually whole, of unimpaired innocence and proved virtue) is the person who takes part (shares) in the first resurrection! Over them the second death exerts no power or authority, but they shall be ministers of God and of Christ (the Messiah), and they shall rule along with Him a thousand years.

Lahry- and then the second resurrection shall occur, along with the great white throne judgement.

Shalom,

Lahry



 2005/6/30 20:48
CHRISTINYOU2
Member



Joined: 2005/6/30
Posts: 1


 Re:

Hi everybody,

Stever, It is refreshing to hear the same message coming from another person in Christ, the same message The Holy Spirit has revealed to me. Committed to not commingling Law and Pure Grace, Christ in the believer as the only life we have, and separating the heavenly from the earthly. Taking Paul's mystery and revealing the Christ in us the Hope of Glory. The resurrection of believers is for the heavenly the resurrection for Israel to being ruled over by their King on David's throne, earthly. Looking forward to even more truth revealed by the Holy Spirit, Teacher about The Christ that is in us, for it is no longer I who live but Christ who Lives in me. Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Thanks be to God for His Son in us and the Holy Spirit Teacher or who He is.

In Christ: Phillip

 2005/6/30 21:48Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Paul tells them that they will be delivered from the wrath to come (the Great Tribulation):


Stever,

It is clear you believe the 'wrath to come' is the 'Great Tribulation', but you do have to admit that this is an [i]interpretation[/i] which is created by the claim that 'wrath to come' is [i]interchangable with[/i] 'tribulation'.

Yet, when scripture uses two different words, in other contexts, it means two different things. A good example of this is the verse in Ephesians which says 'goodness and righteousness and truth' (5:9) - three completely different nouns which are further defined and expanded by other verses in other books.

TRIBULATION
By the way, by accepting that 'wrath' is [i]not equal to[/i] 'tribulation', you remove none of the terror of tribulation from the text. Only, it makes more sense of the [i]whole[/i] of John 16, which ends
33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

The beginning of the chapter is about suffering for the faith - even dying, physically - not because of wrath. This is backed up by these verses.

1 John 5
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even [u]our faith[/u].
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

It doesn't say anything about escaping tribulation. - And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony and they loved not their lives unto [u]the death[/u]. (Rev 12:11)

WRATH
Regarding wrath, here are some more verses which [u]do not[/u] imply 'tribulation'.
Ephesians 2
1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the [b]children of wrath[/b], even as others. 4 But God,

Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the [b]wrath of God[/b] upon the [u]children of disobedience[/u].

Coloss 3:6 For which things' sake the [b]wrath of God[/b] cometh on the [u]children of disobedience[/u]:

The above provide a better context for understanding that wrath is about what awaits those [i]who do not believe[/i]. That is, those who have not become obedient to faith.

This thought ties in with the promise that those who prefer darkness, or, who do not believe, are [i]condemned already[/i] - therefore, will become subject to the judgement (wrath) of God.

1 Thess 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Christians escape 'wrath' through faith in Christ. At no time in Church history, can they be sure of escaping tribulation.

Quote:
Paul actually believed that Jesus would come again before his generation was gone.

Does he exactly say this anywhere?

Quote:
Neither were there nor has there been since anyone resurrected.


Didn't Jesus ask Martha whether she believed in the resurrection? He said 'Your brother shall rise again'. Here is his declaration.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And [b]whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die[/b]. Believest thou this?

Doesn't v 26 puts the cat amongst the pigeons here.

Another problem is what the crowd were discussing about the very fact of Lazarus's death.

37 And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused [u]that even this man should not have [i][b]died[/b][/i][/u]?

Isn't this last bit of reasoning what our flesh hopes for itself before salvation, and why we are to take up our cross daily, [i]after[/i] salvation?

 2005/6/30 22:49









 Re: Dorcas

Thanks for the post. Good comments indeed.

Yes there have been those who have been raised from the dead. But they are not raised into their immortal bodies, they are raised back into life as we know it now.
People were raised from the dead when Jesus died on the cross. But not into immortal bodies, but back into the corrupted ones.
To all the pre-trib rapture folks, I don't have a problem if you are right. Praise God. It would be wonderful to be snatched out of this world and into the loving arms of my Master. I hope you are right. There are great arguments to be made using scripture both for and against your position and mine.
If we are living our lives today like Christ told us too, loving God with all our heart, no idols, and loving our neighbor as ourselve, no cheating, then it really does not matter either way. If we are snatched, praise God. If we are in the midst of tribulation, praise God. Did not the Psalmist say that God has prepared us a table in the sight of our enemies? Do we not walk through the valley of the shadow of death, and yet not fear. Are you ready to do that? Am I? I hope that you are.
Know this, if Israel signs a peace treaty with the Arabs, the 7 year clock will begin to tick, rapture or not.
God bless you all as you go on with Jesus. May His rhema Word abound in your hearts and lead you and guide you into all truth.

In Him,

Lahry

 2005/7/1 7:31
ReceivedText
Member



Joined: 2005/4/22
Posts: 257
Seattle, Washington, USA

 Re:

Quote:
Know this, if Israel signs a peace treaty with the Arabs, the 7 year clock will begin to tick, rapture or not.



Chapter and verse please?

Quote:
To all the pre-trib rapture folks, I don't have a problem if you are right. Praise God. It would be wonderful to be snatched out of this world and into the loving arms of my Master. I hope you are right. There are great arguments to be made using scripture both for and against your position and mine.



Be sure that the pre-tribbers are NOT right. As to their arguments, they are riddled with holes. There's a hole in that bucket, dear Liza.

RT

 2005/7/1 17:18Profile





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