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Smokey
Member



Joined: 2005/2/21
Posts: 417
Edmonton Alberta Cda.

 Re: yes but when?


There is no doubt that there is coming a day when the faithfull, both dead and alive, shall be supernaturally transported into the presence of Jesus Christ to be with Him forever..
1 Cor: 15-52
1Th: 4:16-17
The only issue is the timing of this event... I believe that the pre-tribulation rapture "theory" is just a repeat of the original lie of saten found in Gen.3.4. If you have a "church" that believes that they will avoid this time of trouble , and go to heaven before trouble starts, you get a "church" like we have now, FAT AND LAZY. Roadsign, you admonished me earlier about basing my question on only one verse of scripture, and not taking into account other similar occurances, I now ask you to do the same thing, and think on these observations on the past workings of God.

1. Joseph was not delivered from prison, but was allowed to remain there to "mature".
2. When Isreal came out of Egypt, God did not transport them into the Promised Land. He gave them the opportunity to go quickly into the promised land, but due to the bad report of the majority of the spies, they had to live in the desert, where God protected and provided for them, for 40 years.
3. Noah was not wisked away to a high dry place when God brought the flood. Noah had to labour for over 100 years to build the ark that God showed him how to build. When it started to rain Noah and his family were safe IN the ark. God protected, and provided for Noah and his family THROUGH the flood.
4. Shadrach, Meshach, & Abed-Nego were all thrown INTO the furnace. God protected, and provided for them IN the fire. Also it is very important to take note of the fourth man that was in the fire with them, He will be with everyone that will trust Him..
There are many examples of God continually dealing with His people in this manner, granting provision and protection to go THROUGH trials and tribulation.
Why would God now choose to do things in a way other than he has in the past?
Ever learning; Greg


_________________
Greg

 2005/6/29 20:19Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: My husband's theology

Whenever anyone asks my husband whether he is a pre or post triber, he says, "I am a pan-triber..... it will all pan out in the end."
What a great way to put closure to a discussion that will produce zero edification. After all, a man convinced his will is of the same opinion still..

Sorry, just had to deviously stick in a big toe.
Diane


_________________
Diane

 2005/6/29 20:28Profile









 Re: Stever

Thank you sir for your post. I almost agree with Roady in that this kind of discussion rarely produces edification.
I would ask one favor of you. God back over your post and see how many times you applied the word "rapture" to the scriptures you listed that do not have this word in them. That is searching for scripture to support your doctrine.
The old and the new testament both teach of the second coming of Christ. Only one second coming, that being at the end of the tribulation. If you would but consider all the scripture you posted in light of this awesome event and it's revealed time table, you will see the harmony within it all.
While it is true that some prophecy is not so easy to fully understand, this scripture in Rev 20 to me is very clear, in it's timing and in it being the "first" resurrection, not "a" resurrection.
I don't doubt your zeal or sincerity. I just think you are sincerely wrong and are having difficulty accepting what the bible clearly states as fact.
I was raised in religion, where traditions of men had precident over the Holy Bible. Once I read the bible for myself, I had to make a choice, tradition or bible. I chose bible and have never regretted my choice. I dont' know just how it's all going to pan out. But this I do know, it will all come to pass, just like the bible says. And when it says "first resurrection" and this event is clearly written after the tribulation period, I believe it means just that.
God bless you and thank you for your comments.

In Christ Jesus,

Lahry

 2005/6/29 21:54









 Re:

Lahry said:
Thank you sir for your post. I almost agree with Roady in that this kind of discussion rarely produces edification.


Stever's response:

Dear Lahry:

The Pre-Trib, Post-Trib Rapture dispute has been going on for generations. The majority of the Christian body holds to the Pre-Trib position. But, who needs to argue over something that has nothing to do with our salvation, and appears to be impossible for some to reconcile.

I still have a question that I posted earlier, that you have never answered, and would appreciate a reply:

In regards to the pre-tribulation rapture being in error, then please explain to me why Christ has to come down and separate the sheep from the goats ? They would automatically be separated at the rapture- the dead in Christ rising first, and those (in Christ) that are alive next? Who would be left behind but the Non-believers? There would be no need to separate the Sheep from the Goats if this event occured at the SAME TIME AS THE RAPTURE.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/6/29 23:06









 Re:

Smokey said:
The only issue is the timing of this event... I believe that the pre-tribulation rapture "theory" is just a repeat of the original lie of saten found in Gen.3.4.

Stever's response:

So, I guess you are saying here that the entire book of 1 Thessalonians can be thrown in the ash can? Have you taken the time to read and study it? It involves new revelation that Paul has been provided by Jesus Christ. The second coming and the rapture are not one and the same event. At the 2nd coming Christ comes with His saints to the earth. At the rapture, He comes to get his saints---his saints meet him in the air and he does not come down to the earth.

Paul refers to the Doctrine that he teaches as MY DOCTRINE:
2 Timothy 3:10" 10. But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,"

2 Timothy 3:16-17 " 16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

Paul had a face to face encounter with the risen Christ on the Damascas Road. He was taught by Jesus Christ, face to face for 3 years- 1st in Arabia and then to Damascas- read/study Galatians 1:12-18
"12. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
13. For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14. And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
15. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16. To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
17. Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
18. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days."

The point is, this is new revelation, not found in the Old Testament. There is Old Testament teaching about a type of snatching away by force (the Rapture)---when Enoch was walking with God, and then he was not, because God took him. This is really the only "picture" or "Type teaching" of the rapture. Some try to say that the Ark is a picture of the rapture, but it is not. It is a picture of what happened to Shadrack, Meschack & Abedingo in the firery furnace, and also a picture of what will happen to the Jews that will be supernaturally protected by God during the Tribulation.

The Rapture is the complete snatching away of the dead in Christ first, and then the living in Christ, that are snatched up to be with the Lord, forever.

At the 2nd coming Christ comes with His saints because they are already with Him in heaven:
Zech 14:5-7:
5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE.
6. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7. But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

jUDE 1:14-15 " 14. And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the LORD COMETH WITH TEN THOUSANDS OF HIS SAINTS,
15. To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
XXXXXXXXXX
Smokey said:

If you have a "church" that believes that they will avoid this time of trouble , and go to heaven before trouble starts, you get a "church" like we have now, FAT AND LAZY. Roadsign, you admonished me earlier about basing my question on only one verse of scripture, and not taking into account other similar occurances, I now ask you to do the same thing, and think on these observations on the past workings of God.


Stever's response:

So, you are saying that Christ, through the power of the Holy Spirit is not in control of His own Church? Sounds like you believe that flesh (the power of the will of the believer, not the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit that indwells all believers) has power to perform miracles, to raise the dead, heal the sick, and cast down strongholds?

Are we, as Christians supposed to be tough, and strong, and work out with weights, and be in shape? Is all our power in our flesh, or is all of it found in Christ?

At the end times, my Bible tells me there will be a falling away. For the past 40 years we (the World) has been in a free fall. It really has nothing to do with the power of our will, or our belief or non-belief in a Pre-Tribulation rapture., or anything else that is in our control.

Have you ever read about early America and the Great Awakening? Was that the result of the works of George Whitefield, or was it the result of the works of the Holy Spirit who anointed him.

That, my friend, is something to ponder over.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/6/30 0:04
sabjb
Member



Joined: 2005/4/28
Posts: 4
CANYON LAKE, TEXAS

 Re: rapture

Just the same new thing nothing ancient. The rapture doctrine was not taught in the early church and was not even debated by early church fathers. It would seem that many today would rather preach a new gospel rather then the "faith once delivered to the saints". The gospel of the kingdom is what our Lord commanded us to preach. I am amazed at many christians who
preach you must believe in a rapture in order to be saved. I think the gospel of the Kingdom will suffice. Paul clearly said that he preached "christ crucified" that was the power of salvation. I do not think preaching the church raptured has any merit or foundation in the scripture to be used in the manner it is used today. Just another distraction to cause christians to waste time on opinions. These things are not even listed in the scriptures in Hebrews as fundementals. The basics listed such as the doctrine of resurrections, doctrine of baptisms, etc... are not even understood nor practiced by most of the church. I do believe there is a reformation coming again if not may God help us all in the years ahead.


_________________
STEPHEN ANDREW BUNDRA

 2005/6/30 2:36Profile
sabjb
Member



Joined: 2005/4/28
Posts: 4
CANYON LAKE, TEXAS

 Re: FIRST RESURRECTION

Dear brother,

What is the first resurrection if it is not being saved. We were dead in trespasses and sin then made alive by the blood of Christ. Hence first resurrection. Check out Romans as the scripture says we will not be hurt by the second death. One other first fruit resurrection in the new testament is the raising of Christ after crucifixion where the scriptures clearly state that the Saints of old also resurrected. The Lord then spent 40 days with his disciples teaching them. Boy what a class that must have been. :-)


_________________
STEPHEN ANDREW BUNDRA

 2005/6/30 2:49Profile
sabjb
Member



Joined: 2005/4/28
Posts: 4
CANYON LAKE, TEXAS

 Re: First Resurrection

Dear Brothers,

The first resurrection occurs when we are delivered from death in sin and trespasses. The scriptures clearly state that we are born a second time hence raised from the power of sin and death when we receive Christ as our Saviour. That is the first resurrection. Check out romans where it is written that all men are dead in trespass and sin. One other interesting note the first fruits resurrection listed in the Gospels when Christ was raised from the dead and the Saints of old with him. Oops I guess we might be able to call that something of a first resurrection, what do you think? The scripture also says that we cannot be hurt by the second death what? a second death. Boy it sure is interesting this word of God isn't it?

God Bless :-)


_________________
STEPHEN ANDREW BUNDRA

 2005/6/30 2:58Profile









 Re:




I still have a question that I posted earlier, that you have never answered, and would appreciate a reply:

In regards to the pre-tribulation rapture being in error, then please explain to me why Christ has to come down and separate the sheep from the goats ? They would automatically be separated at the rapture- the dead in Christ rising first, and those (in Christ) that are alive next? Who would be left behind but the Non-believers? There would be no need to separate the Sheep from the Goats if this event occured at the SAME TIME AS THE RAPTURE.

God bless,

Stever




You are so close, it's almost forrest and trees kind of view. Why would Christ have to seperate the sheep and the goats? Because they have not yet been seperated. When will this occur? At the end of the rapture. Those who are His will rise up into eternal life and those who are not will be lost eternally. Do you think that at "pre-trib" there will be an assembly of "goats" and they will respond "Lord, when did we see you naked"? I don't. But it can fit at the end of the trib, or perhaps even at the end of the millineum. I just can't make it fit at the beginning. You may be right, but what if you're not. What then?
See, when you realize that there is only one second coming of Jesus Christ, and one first resurrection, it's not difficult at all to understand the chronological order of events. Jesus comes to seperate us from the lost and reign for a thousand years. He shuts up satan, raises the dead, and gathers those that are His, that is, those who are alive, and those who gave up their lived during the trib for their profession of faith in Christ Jesus. These are the ones who will reign with Him for a thousand years, and the bible clearly says so.
Will the dead in Christ include every saint that has died previously? Perhaps. But the Word does not say this.
God is not confused, nor is He dismayed. All of these things will happen just as He chooses and probably in some very surprising ways.
If Jesus takes the church away tonigh, I'm going with Him. You will probably testify that you are too, and by your testimony I would agree, though my agreement matters nought. But what if the second coming of Jesus is post-trib? Will you have the faith it is going to require to hold fast till "the end"? Will I? I pray we do. How is that faith developed? By waiting for the trip to begin? I think not. I think it must be matured now, while there is yet time.
Finally, rapture will mean little to those who are lost today without Christ. Many people here in this country left home this morning and will not return home this evening. Are they ready? Their personal rapture will take place today. Since no man has a promise on tommorrow, you and I may be among them. We must live our lives like today is our last, and the only passion we possess is that of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. To God be the glory, now and forever amen.

In Him,

Lahry

 2005/6/30 8:52
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: Salvation=the first resurrection

I agree with you. We are reigning with Christ now IF we have been truely crucified with him. (salvation) "I no longer live but Christ lives in me" ....."We know we have passed from DEATH to LIFE, because wo love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in DEATH." 1 Jn. 3:14

We now long for our final resurrection where in the new heavens and the new earth we will be with Christ for eternity.

Those who are dead in their sins now are not reigning with him, but are spiritually dead. However they are not off the hook with God, even when they die. They will be brought to God for the final judgment.

That is an important truth that we must bring to focus. That truth was at the heart of Jesus.

In Matt. 24:36 ff, Jesus is talking about the final judgment by comparing it to past judgments. Ex: the flood "the flood came and TOOK them away.... This is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two will be in the fields, one will be TAKEN..... Two women will be grinding... one will be TAKEN
Jesus is talking about people being taken away in judgment - completely unprepared because of they had no spiritual sensitivity to God. At another time Jesus used Sodom and Gomorrah as an example. Their lives were suddenly taken, because they refused to listen to warnings, and refused to repent.

Judgment is the emphasis of the passages about end times. Jesus tells of the importance of being ready. Those who are living in sin, will NOT be ready, but those who are obedient to God will be prepared - and they will be able to read the signs.

We have been hearing that only about 5% of those who BELIEVE that they are saved really are. That should shake us a whole lot. We each need to humble ourselves before God, ask him if we are relying on our own self-justification - our own understanding, our own works. Have we been truely crucified with Christ? If so, what died? For without death, there is no FIRST resurrection. If we are still clinging to our pride, self-will, self-righteousness, Biblical knowledge, or religous dedication, we may be like the Pharisees - trusting in a false hope; and we will be taken away in judgment when we are not expecting it - regardless of how hard we have tried to speculate end times events.
"All a man's ways seem right to him" Prov. , so let us ask God to shine his light on our hearts and show us the truth about ourselves.
Isn't that the real purpose of studying the end times?
Diane


_________________
Diane

 2005/6/30 9:11Profile





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