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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : 16th century Anabaptist taught : "innocent party to a divorce was permitted to remarry"

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savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1718


 Re: heart-wrenching


Blaine,

I'd be able to tell more stories of the same nature, but it would not do anyone a bit of good.

These two alone say enough!

To answer your question about the two incidents...the answer is no, they weren't in the same church.

In regard to the woman, I can't say that I know what ever became of her.

As far as the three elders, I can't tell you that I witnessed any heart-felt emotion by them. If they did, it was behind closed doors at home, with their wives. Of course they expressed grief and some emotion, as they did when they replied they "understood", when the man told them how lonely he was each night in his apartment.

As for the wife, she must have been torn in pieces, but I honestly can't say I witnessed it myself.

The tragedy and incredulity of believing in indissolubility!

"If error is harmless, then truth is useless." CHS

 2018/1/11 15:46Profile









 Re:

Savannah writes..

// The tragedy and incredulity of believing in indissolubility!

"If error is harmless, then truth is useless." CHS
//

So agree my brother. The two stories you share are heart wrenchibg enough. And you say there are more you could tell. Dear Lord have mercy. This is surely not the truth of Jesus to set men free. It us surely not His yoke that is easy and His burden that is light. Truly heart wrenching

Thank you for sharing.

Blaine

 2018/1/11 18:47
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1718


 Re: the end




Last year my family and I went back to the state we moved from, for the first time in 12 years. We saw some of those same men who were involved in the two incidents I mentioned.

One of the men had a definite change of heart. I was quite taken back when I saw him though. Reason being, because he now has Parkinsons Disease. He has led the church in a direction where they're more compassionate to the remarried.

One of the other men was seated in the same room. But he could not join in the conversation. Due to his condition his wife lives separate from him. His son and daughter-in-law care for him daily. He lives with them. He suffers from a severe case of Parkinsons Disease as well.

I was surprised to hear of the fate of two other men who were involved. They each died of cancer. Another man and his family, with the exception of one son, were killed in a car wreck.

None of these men are/were old men. Others I knew who had been staunch defenders of the separating of families, had had a change of heart and were now gracious rather than graceless.

But many others I know, are yet on the warpath, to make sure that they let any remarried couple that they may meet, know that they are living in adultery.


I'm done here now!

Carry on my fellow soldiers of the cross...

 2018/1/11 22:47Profile
jdelsanto
Member



Joined: 2017/5/17
Posts: 5
Connecticut

 Re:

Brother Blaine,

This has been a confusing topic for me for a few years now; I was always under the impression that I could not get remarried (until death of my ex spouse). I am not looking for an answer that tickles my ears, but I truly wonder if the topic of divorce and remarriage has been viewed incorrectly for so long because of the law (before Jesus fulfilled it), and the gentiles (Paul speaking of divorce/remarriage).

Are Christians truly forbidden from getting remarried if their unbelieving spouse desires a divorce and remarried? Again, not looking for an ear tickling answer, because I feel each should seek the Lord, but I’m asking for clarity within scriptures. I’ve heard both sides of the topic.

What are your thoughts?


_________________
Jessica

 2018/1/11 22:49Profile









 Re: Jessica

Sister just saw your post. The hour is late here so I will try to respond in a day or two. Much going on here so I do not want to shoot from the hip on this controversial topic.

I would prefer to answer you by email if possible. So if you're comfortable please send an email to my address below. Or if you prefer I will respond in the thread here. But want to do so with thoughtful, prayerful answer.

Blaine
pwprayercall@gmail.com

 2018/1/11 23:11
jmawhorter
Member



Joined: 2017/12/28
Posts: 2
Surrey, BC

 Re:

Lisa,

I would encourage you to carefully consider the verses that you submitted.

Quote:
Acts 10
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. 15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.



This verse seems to me to have nothing to do with adultery or any other form of sexual immorality. Peter did not see a sheet with a group of prostitutes on it. What relationship does this verse have to do with Jesus' teaching on marriage and adultery?

Quote:

Acts 13:11 And that is what some of you WERE. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

How can someone be guilty of a sin and still be justified?

Acts 13:38-39 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: and by him ALL THAT BELIEVE are justified FROM ALL THINGS, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.



Do you mean that any sin someone is living in becomes not sin anymore at some point because of what Jesus did? If so, that seems so contrary to Jesus' whole message. Jesus wasn't whitewashing tombs, he was cleaning out dead men's bones. Jesus wasn't forgiving sin without setting people free from sin, he was setting people free so that they could be right with God and also be forgiven.

Quote:

James 2
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and MERCY REJOICES against judgment.



I'm not sure what you meant by including this verse but I think this gets to the heart of the issue. Unfortunately, many people want God's mercy shown to them more than they want to show mercy to others. This is the heart of the problem with remarriage while one's spouse (however, rotten they may have been) is still living: it is a fundamental departure from Jesus' radical teaching on love, mercy and forgiveness.

Why would I have to give my last piece of clothing to someone wrongfully suing me, who I may barely even know but be able to refuse to reconcile with my wife because she was unfaithful? Why would I have to pray for a man who is torturing and killing my family, asking God to have mercy on him, and yet give up on the woman God has joined me together with and go get another one?

If I am unfaithful to my wife because she was first unfaithful to me, I am inviting Jesus to judge me by the same unmerciful standard that I have judged her and I can be sure I will get exactly what I deserve.

Joel


_________________
Joel

 2018/1/14 18:10Profile
jmawhorter
Member



Joined: 2017/12/28
Posts: 2
Surrey, BC

 Re:

I want to respond to the comments I read in this thread about divorce and remarriage being the unpardonable sin.

I fail to see the reasoning behind this argument, which I have heard before.

Are homosexuality, or drunkenness, or murder, or theft, or greed, or idolatry the unpardonable sin? Of course not! However, to be reconciled to God requires a man or woman to forsake these sins (i.e. stop doing them). Just being sorry that you are committing them is not good enough.

What makes the sin of adultery any different? Why does a man who takes a mistress on the side (without getting a divorce) have to forsake that to truly repent? If such a man then gets a paper from the state saying he is no longer married, how does that somehow make his adultery something that doesn't have to be repented of?


_________________
Joel

 2018/1/14 18:24Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3361
East TN (for now)

 Re:

Quote:
Quote:

Acts 10
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. 15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.


by Joel
This verse seems to me to have nothing to do with adultery or any other form of sexual immorality. Peter did not see a sheet with a group of prostitutes on it. What relationship does this verse have to do with Jesus' teaching on marriage and adultery?


Bro Joel,

Thank you for your concern. I'm at work so I have time to respond to only one point.

There seems to be 2 camps, one who hyper-focus on the sin of remarriage and believe that there is no forgiveness for staying with the remarried partner and then the other camp who believes that God doesn't want two or families tore apart, they can repent of adultery and it is forgiven therefore they can stay in the marriage and they believe that ALL sin is forgiven except for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

I reside in the latter camp. And no, the verse does not apply to divorce/remarriage per se but how it applied in my post is, "What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common," ...what God has forgiven (cleansed), do not call common (uncleaned or unforgiven).

Peter was one of the original 12 and Jesus had to tell inform him of that in a vision. Peter did not even believe that Gentiles could be saved, but did that stop Gentiles from being saved? Only in Peter's eyes (belief system) but it did not stop Jesus from accepting them into the fold. Until Peter saw them converted by the evidence of speaking in tongues did he realize God had accepted them and would accept other Gentiles. He had a face to face encounter with the Holy Spirit!

Only will the first camp believe that truly ALL sins are forgiven and that remarriage is not a perpetual sin of adultery when they too have a face to face encounter with the Holy Spirit. What God has cleansed, do not call uncommon.

God bless you,
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2018/1/15 12:49Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3361
East TN (for now)

 Re:

Quote:
Quote:
by Lysa
Acts 13:11 And that is what some of you WERE. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

How can someone be guilty of a sin and still be justified?

Acts 13:38-39 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: and by him ALL THAT BELIEVE are justified FROM ALL THINGS, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.


By Joel
Do you mean that any sin someone is living in becomes not sin anymore at some point because of what Jesus did? If so, that seems so contrary to Jesus' whole message. Jesus wasn't whitewashing tombs, he was cleaning out dead men's bones. Jesus wasn't forgiving sin without setting people free from sin, he was setting people free so that they could be right with God and also be forgiven.


Brother,

Jesus came to do exactly what you said AND more. Do you and others realize that not in one place has the Bible EVER said that “marriage” is a sin, any marriage? But it does say, “repent and be forgiven.” That is a theme thorough-out our Bible as well.

Quote:
Quote:
by Lysa
James 2
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and MERCY REJOICES against judgment.


By Joel
I'm not sure what you meant by including this verse but I think this gets to the heart of the issue. Unfortunately, many people want God's mercy shown to them more than they want to show mercy to others. This is the heart of the problem with remarriage while one's spouse (however, rotten they may have been) is still living: it is a fundamental departure from Jesus' radical teaching on love, mercy and forgiveness.


I’m sorry, I don’t see how desiring God’s mercy more than showing others mercy is the heart of the problem with remarriage. Could you explain? Thank you.

But from reading the rest, it’s seems (I could be wrong) that you are inferring that I am taking liberties with Scripture? :) :) That’s ok, I will always side on the side of forgiveness and mercy, always. Yes, Jesus did say it was adultery but like I stated, I believe with the belief system of the-unforgivable-sin-of-remarriage that the whole concept of repentance and forgiveness that is in the Bible is overlooked.

Remarriage is a HUGE matter, and yet somehow Jesus and the Holy Spirit failed to include specific instructions about divorcing your current spouse?? This is just my personal opinion but saying that Jesus inferred that they must leave their current covenant marriage to be reconciled with the first, to me THAT is taking liberties with the Scripture!

Let me be clear, I believe that Christians who are remarried can repent, dedicate their lives to Christ and each other and STAY married to one another and it will not be a continuous sin of adultery. There I said it, I don't believe Jesus will stone me! :) :) :)

God bless us all as we are trying to be the Christ’s hands and feet to this generation,
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2018/1/16 6:24Profile





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