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 Re:

Quote:
A mature Christian is someone who is abandoned to the will of God. It's someone who is dead, nevertheless he lives, yet not he, but Christ lives in him. A dead person doesn't have a nervous breakdown



Are you saying then that nothing that happens to a mature Christian will ever sway them and that all mature Christian's will sail through the rest of this life without anything affecting them? Don't get me wrong I do believe that it is possible to remain Christ so that these things can be avoidable but it is not what I have seen in some of the mature christian's that I know and they definately are mature Christians. I have also believe the most 'immature Christians' can get through all sorts of crisis and remain at peace and unswayed the same as a mature Christian. Surely it comes down to remaining in Him. I guess you should be much better at this if you are a mature Christian but it doesn't mean that it is inevitable. Surely mature and immature Christian's alike have the same ability in Christ to get through all sorts of things.

I also think some mature Christian's may be in some ways more vunerable as they could become complacent about their stability.

 2005/6/20 11:26
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Question?

Who was it that said God can't use anyone greatly that He hasn't hurt deeply.


Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgression, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed/Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

John the baptisers ministry lasted only 3-9 months and yet Jesus said there was none greater born of woman, YET the lest in the Kingdom......ect Much of what we go through prepares us for a time ahead when Jesus will approach us and say "friend" I have need of you.


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D.Miller

 2005/6/20 13:20Profile
Spitfire
Member



Joined: 2004/8/3
Posts: 633


 Re: nervous breakdown

I suppose a good definition of "nervous breakdown" is needed here. You asked:

Quote:
Are you saying then that nothing that happens to a mature Christian will ever sway them and that all mature Christian's will sail through the rest of this life without anything affecting them?


No, I'm not saying that, but I thought a nervous breakdown is when someone so looses control of themselves emotionally that they can't regain their composure without medical intervention. As someone who is very emotional, I used to spend weeks and months, even years in depression and despair. Then, when a crisis occurred, I would become hysterical. Now, the truth within me draws me back from the edge of that cliff. Just today, a friend of mine said, "what used to take me days, weeks, months to regain my composure, now only takes minutes because I know the Truth." What is that truth? Jesus Christ. I know that I will never succomb to that insanity again because there's an anchor in my soul. That's not to say that I don't have moments of despair, but it never lasts. I wake up every morning with a fresh new breath. It's like the truth in me is blowing like a breeze. Hallelujah! What a relief! How can we lose hope for very long when we have a God who has come for us?

See, I have come to believe in divine election because of my own experience. I [i]know[/i] that I could never have been healed if God hadn't worked a miracle. I know I'm chosen and not because of anything in me. Knowing I'm chosen has given me an assurance about making it because I know that God is the initiator of everything about my life. I don't lose hope anymore, because my hope is not dependent upon me. I know I'm going to make it, because God is seeing to it. I have this assurance that I've been God's since before I entered my mother's womb and it was God's choice, not mine. So now, nothing that happens to me in this life can shake me loose from that hope. Nothing. Love, Dian.

 2005/6/20 15:27Profile









 Re: Battles in the mind - re Compton

Quote:
The reasoning put forth is that once your mind is cleansed your will not only have a right concept of God, but of yourself as well.



Ah! But, there is a big gap between what has been accomplished in the Spirit through the blood of the eternal sacrifice, and our experience of 'knowing' the [i]effect[/i] of the eternal sacrifice [i]in our minds and in our bodies[/i] in a steady and slow-burn crescendo to which we can honestly attest with our daily consciousness. It is this gap which must be addressed with ardent candour, if we are to [b][i]enjoy[/i][/b] the salvation for which we have believed.

Quote:
Well, I tried to create a broad term to include various theological attitudes on personal holiness. Perhaps too broad...I don't know.


OK. I see now, thanks.

Quote:
My purpose was to make sure that [b]the mental problems we experience are real[/b] and not the results of inhuman expectations.


Realistically, one must deal with the reasons for mental problems differently according to their cause [i]and[/i] give as much acknowledgement to the mental problem(s) it(them)self, if any are to be brought to the Lord in prayer [i]meaningfully[/i], either with, or without, the sufferer.

Quote:
I was meaning that particular school of theology that seems to assert sinless human perfection is the pentacostal birthright of every true Christian.

...If you haven't seen this shortcoming of traditional holiness doctrine then you are fortunate.


I think I have - been deeply affected by this, too.

Quote:
I wasn't so worried about discussing that birthright per se as much as how this perspective, can leave one with [b]a cynicism that wants to reveal sin more then reveal Jesus[/b]. I did not mean that as a critique of holiness theology...just an observation of it's misuses.


I'm not sure if I know what you mean here. Isn't it the revelation of Jesus which gives the necessary contrast with sin?

Quote:
I think "Healing", as is associated with "inner healing", is a concept that touches on mental/emotional health concepts while perhaps also touching many traditional Christian doctrines including assurance, and sanctification.

What do you think?

Perhaps, a firm definition of the term could be helpful in this thread.



I hope others will offer their thoughts on this question, too. Here are mine in very short form.

Matt 4:23 ends with the words [b]'and He healed them'.[/b] These were Jews. There is an overwhelming link, in the Old Testament, with the blessings of health and the keeping of the Law. There is an overwhelming link between sickness - ill health of all kinds, including madness - with sin. If you are not sure, this is something to keep an eye open for as you read scripture. It is worth a study on its own but I'm not going to lay mine out here.

(I started a thread 'Healing - who 'gets' it?' which I will bring to the top, where those who are interested can do a fuller Bible study on 'healing', perhaps?)

When Jesus healed people, usually, He was overcome with compassion for their condition. He also recognised they were 'sick' and the last thing they needed was a 'hard sell' about the gospel, or, any pre-conditions before He would act mercifully towards them. Obviously, they were sick because they had sinned. This seems clear from the connection Jesus makes between forgiveness and healing AND His teaching on the way we are to approach a 'brother' with repentance if we believe they have reason to have something against us (and other thoughts on this line, that we should take the responsibility if we have harmed someone else). But, I am specifically, now, in the New Covenant dispensation NOT saying that all [i]your[/i] (my)sickness is because of [i]your[/i] (my) sin.

It is oversimplistic to say all sickness is because of sin and therefore we don't need to [i]understand[/i] how people go under, or, how to help them get up again... they just have to deal with their sin, forgive anyone who harmed them and hey presto! [i]whole now[/i]! I don't think so. That was the whole point of quoting Spitfire's testimony, at the end of the opening post.

So, 'healing' is a general term for the action of God to bring a person to full health, however long or miraculously short it takes in milliseconds.

'inner healing' is a term I use to define what I am experiencing these days, as I am being healed from the top of my head to way below my neck, as a result of my needs being attended by the Lord Himself, in the spiritual, emotional, physical and psychological realms, simultaneously as they are interlinked, but, with the same sort of pin-point precision as Dian shared in her description.

To explain further, I think I should start another post...


 2005/6/20 20:34
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
I suppose a good definition of "nervous breakdown" is needed here:


This is a good question. I'm not sure if it's even a "technical" term...just a catch-all that could mean a number of things. Some people may not accept these as "real" but they might include anxiety attacks and disorders, bipolar disorder, post-traumatic disorders, post-partum depression and even good old fashioned depression. I don't know to much about any of these things except that they demonstrate how vunerable our minds are.

What you shared reminded me of something that I recently heard from Michael Card. He observed that for Peter who stepped out of the boat, sinking in the water was more important for him then walking on the water. Jesus came to him. Perhaps all these teachers who write books on water-walking techniques missed the point of that scripture...

Quote:
Today, we are also prone to weaknesses and frailties, and I think more compassion should be exercised when we find Christians, yes, even the ones we look up to, in such conditions. If we do not humbly and properly see the vulnerability in our humanity, it will be very easy for us to become disillusioned.


Agent, you speak so little and say so much.
Quote:
Who was it that said God can't use anyone greatly that He hasn't hurt deeply.


Reminds me of another quote from someone I can't place,"How else can God enter our hearts unless they are broken?"
Quote:
I also think some mature Christian's may be in some ways more vunerable as they could become complacent about their stability.


You don't sound clueless, Clueless. ;-)


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Mike Compton

 2005/6/20 20:51Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Thanks Dorcas for your detailed response.

Quote:
I'm not sure if I know what you mean here. Isn't it the revelation of Jesus which gives the necessary contrast with sin?



Yes. Without overstating the point, consider a railroad engine and a caboose. If we think we can steer the train from the caboose, we might experience some mental strain! That is how I hear some holiness preaching. (Which is not to say that the preachers intentions were such...)

Now I'm not trying to critique holiness preaching! My earliest comments in this thread were to point out and question the unspoken assumptions linking mental health with sanctification.

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2005/6/20 21:30Profile









 Re: Battles in the mind - re Compton contd.

Proverbs 18
14 The spirit of a man will sustain his infirmity; but [b]a wounded spirit who can bear[/b]?

When I found this verse above, it illuminated my condition to my understanding, but it didn't 'cure' me.

Isaiah 5
20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil;
that put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
{call...: Heb. say concerning evil, It is good, etc}
21 Woe unto [them that are] wise in their own eyes,
and prudent in their own sight!
22 Woe unto [them that are] mighty to drink wine,
and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
23 Which justify the wicked for reward,
and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

When I found this passage in Isaiah, I knew [i]how[/i] my spirit had been wounded.

In fact, as soon as I could therafter (the following day) I sought prayer with anointing oil for healing and the Lord scooped me back into one place and restored to me a [i]sense of being[/i] which I could not remember ever having had; but, I have continued to need many, many more instances of specific and detailed 'inner healing' to bind up my inner being.

I have to testify too, that this (above) came [i]after[/i] another remarkable insight to my state, in which I perceived my inner 'man' had been 'strengthened with might' (Eph 3) much in the way resurrection means something like 'pushed up together' - a counteraction to the dislocation experienced in spiritual extremity. [i]Then[/i], I was able to percieve I [i]had been[/i] smashed to smithereens.

Both of the above events were [b][size=medium]HUGE[/size][/b]. The first one (described second) was accompanied by the release of an enormous amount of inner pain with much crying and wailing, and the second, again with much crying, but of a different sort. The second time I [i]knew[/i] God was going to move to prevent me from spacing out altogether, which was otherwise imminent.

I cannot emphasise enough how overwhelming the events which led to those two specific days, or, the toll which they took on the day, or, how little use I was for any other thing, than simply living through 'being healed'.

It would be nonsense to suggest these profound events can be 'taken in one's stride' when they have been left to become such enormous milestones in the reconstruction of a life. I'm not certain that the way I have come to it, is really what God desires, but, I have found Him ready to meet me when I'm ready to meet Him. And, He has been very uncritical of many other aspects of my life which outwardly meet no recognisable Christian standard at all, [i]honestly[/i].

At no time (above) did I take medication or receive medical support. The Lord did this for me, all by Himself, with minimal support from different Christians who were all virtual strangers to me, and who did not know each other.

Above are two aspects of 'inner healing' I can share. Much I cannot share. Others will have other causes of needing 'inner healing'. As I think about this, it is very difficult to separate the spiritual from the physical needs which 'cry out for', or, results of 'receiving' healing.

My definition includes bio-chemical changes, as well as a coming to 'see' truth about how I got to need healing (my sin and harm from others) and then the experience of God's power to transform my experience of how I 'am' - when I come into His presence with these needs - to how I am after He has 'touched' (sometimes an act of receiving by faith, sometimes a definite physical experience) what HE knows is the pivotal point on which this 'moment' of healing 'turns'.

I feel I've said enough except this... I believe there is not nearly enough emphasis put on healing of every sort, within the Church, for Christians and non-Christians, and for this reason, the Church is weak. It lacks a serious part of its legitimate testimony to the world and Christians are made to suspect they are not even Christians, for such needs as I've described, although I should state clearly here, mine are mine and yours are yours.

In fact, they have been Christians for this long or that long and been expected to make ends meet for years, never hearing certain parts of scripture which would alert them to God's heart to help them identify weaknesses, old emotional or spiritual damage, and be made whole [i]as a [b]natural[/b] part of their walk with the Lord[/i]. Whosoever will may approach Him for help.

It is no wonder that some Christians reach a crisis. And it is accompanied by an acute sense of failure; when it is the very bunch of Christians they joined, who presented them with fallacious and preconceived ideas about spiritual health, which, in that they themselves are not complete (to be charitable about this situation) has failed [i][b]them[/b][/i].

The gulf of years is the problem, [i]not the need[/i]. Emotional elastic stretches only so far, then it snaps. That's ok. That's normal.

Each of us is unique and not one of us is beyond being uniquely healed by the Lord, in the ways we require, to become as WHOLE as possible.

 2005/6/20 21:37









 Re: Battles in the mind

Spitfire,

Quote:
I thought a nervous breakdown is when someone so looses control of themselves emotionally that they can't regain their composure without medical intervention.



This is fair comment, though not everyone who needs it receives the medical intervention which would be appropriate. I have come to think of these as 'silent' nervous breakdowns and I reckon I've had one and several nearlies.

Compton, you made a good list. On the post-traumatic responses, it has been noted by David Baldwin, (whose award-winning website 'trauma-pages' has extensive links), that adults who experience trauma only in adulthood, recover quickly and effectively, compared with adults whose have unresolved childhood trauma at the time of the event in adulthood. He is specially interested in disaster scenarios, but the site links to articles and research to other researches.

I have come to feel that Christians are unnecessarily hard on themselves with regard to mental health, because like a broken leg, it is a valid health need, only a lot less visible, apparently. Or, do we try the 'ignore' treatment, on both ourselves and our fellow-travellers, until something [i]has[/i] to 'give' - the equivalent of the leg falling off?

 2005/6/20 21:49
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
I have come to feel that Christians are unnecessarily hard on themselves with regard to mental health, because like a broken leg, it is a valid health need, only a lot less visible, apparently. Or, do we try the 'ignore' treatment, on both ourselves and our fellow-travellers, until something has to 'give' - the equivalent of the leg falling off?



Good connection, Dorcas.

If we see someone with blood trailing behind him or her, we would respond as best we could. Though hidden, how less real are emotional or mental injuries?

At the risk of sounding soft, sometimes we are too quick to see other people's sins trailing behind them. Perhaps there are some difficult people in our lives that would look quite different seen with the compassion and wisdom of Christ. Under normal light they appear healthy to our eyes, but in a spiritual light they are trailing clouds of blood behind like cut fish in the water...

I think it's best that we see only in part, while the Lord sees all, because he knows what we need. How often do we seek "spiritual deliverance" when all along Jesus is seeking to bind us--- hopelessly to himself?

Is this part of the reason that the Holy Spirit, while convicting of sin, filling with power, and giving revelation, is also called the "Comforter"?

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2005/6/21 23:27Profile
Spitfire
Member



Joined: 2004/8/3
Posts: 633


 Re:

Quote:
not everyone who needs it receives the medical intervention which would be appropriate. I have come to think of these as 'silent' nervous breakdowns and I reckon I've had one and several nearlies.


Any medical intervention I've ever had was useless. The only thing that has ever helped me is dying to self. I have to do that everyday, and when I don't, I act crazy trying to defend my life. It's strange how many shapes "defending" can take. I am at this very moment being, once again, challenged by God to lose my life in an area that most wouldn't even recognize. I've said this before, but I'll repeat myself here. The red flag marker for me is always anger. 99 times out of a hundred, my anger reveals where I'm holding onto my life instead of dying to self. Right now, I've been angry with my husband for 6 weeks over bringing home a puppy that I begged him not to bring home. I knew I would be the one cleaning up after it and doing all the work, and guess what, I am. And I'm mad about it. I like my house clean. I like to spend my time doing what [i]I[/i] want to do. I have little time as it is. Now, I have even less. Just yesterday, I blew up. Now, it's morning and I see the light. I tell you, much grief could have been saved if I would have acted 6 weeks ago when my anger flag went up.

My point is, the only way to have mental health is to be dead. Love, Dian.

 2005/6/22 5:15Profile





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