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bible4life
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Joined: 2009/1/21
Posts: 1558
Locport, Illinois

 Modern day churches

I have Christian friend of mine who was talking to me about the modern day church and how he is was saying that much of it is unbiblical and comes from Rome from the time of Constantine. He was saying from the church building to the pastor leading the church to everyone in the church sitting in pews watching the leaders and pastors. He was saying it was unbiblical and he is pretty much against the idea of their being a pastor over the body of believers but used the example from Corinthians where everyone was involved giving a prophecy or song or a tongue. He doesn't think we should meet in church buildings because that came from paganism. I have been praying about this and even sent me some video the church of tares. I find it fascinating but something isn't setting right in my spirit about this. Most Christians would have no clue of this.


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John Beechy

 2017/8/27 18:57Profile
DEADn
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Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1354
Lakeland FL

 Re: Modern day churches

I would be asking the person what is his proposal of what the church should be look like. I think you would find his response more troubling then this response he gave you.


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John

 2017/8/27 20:14Profile
bible4life
Member



Joined: 2009/1/21
Posts: 1558
Locport, Illinois

 Re:

From what he is telling me is that he thinks just getting together at a park or a house or in a car or wherever should be considered fellowship or what we should be doing. He believes that church buildings and pews and many other things in the church historically are taken from Rome and are pagan. Also that the protestant reformation though it was good still kept some of the traditions from the Catholic church. He doesn't think their should be a pastor but everyone as a whole should be the church. One might give a word of knowledge or something from the scripture and read it, someone might pray, and someone might sing, but he doesn't think the way we see a pastor today as the main guy of the church is biblical. He thinks that the way church is setup today makes many believers observers and doesn't help them to grow and get the active. Much of what he says is interesting and I need to study more about this.


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John Beechy

 2017/8/28 0:27Profile
StirItUp
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Joined: 2016/6/4
Posts: 941
Johannesburg, South Africa

 Re:

Hi John,

If you search on this site regarding house churches or home churches you will find a lot of information as well.

Greg also has a book about it you can download.

You will find a lot of people agreeing with a lot of what your friend seems to be saying.

That church, as we know it, is in serious need of reformation seems to be pretty clear to any believer living in these times.

The gifts given to the church, as in pastors, teachers etc, are to be seen as a spiritual ministry of service to the body, not a job title or a secure,well paid job.

Do we have all the answers? Probably not, but there is no reason not to hope and work for a better way of doing and being church

Blessings,


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William

 2017/8/28 4:31Profile
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 Re:

Quote:

I have Christian friend of mine who was talking to me about the modern day church and how he is was saying that much of it is unbiblical and comes from Rome from the time of Constantine. He was saying from the church building to the pastor leading the church to everyone in the church sitting in pews watching the leaders and pastors. He was saying it was unbiblical and he is pretty much against the idea of their being a pastor over the body of believers but used the example from Corinthians where everyone was involved giving a prophecy or song or a tongue. He doesn't think we should meet in church buildings because that came from paganism. I have been praying about this and even sent me some video the church of tares. I find it fascinating but something isn't setting right in my spirit about this. Most Christians would have no clue of this.




Brother John,


After connecting with house churches and house church leaders for almost 4 years mostly in North America, I saw as many problems or more then in the institutional churches. I do believe house church ministry is valid but it is not the only way. The early Church did start in house churches but those house churches were more formal, religious and the houses themselves at times were set up as churches with a permenant baptism font out of stone etc.

I wrote an abbreviated short volume to speak about these things in more detail:

Starting a House Church
https://www.amazon.com/Starting-House-Church-Greg-Gordon-ebook/dp/B06W53XTYN/

other formats (pdf) etc: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/701703


With a good reading of early Church history the proposal given that the whole church changed drastically during the times of constaine is wrong. There were changes that happened but since AD 100 it was the same, leadership style was the same and many traditions of the Church from the 12 apostles were the same also.


Here is an excerpt of the short book I did from the first chapter:



First Century Apostasy?
The main driving force of some people to start house churches is the strong belief that the entire Church, by and large, apostatized shortly after or during the life of the Apostle John. This means that the truth was lost, and the Church began to depart from God’s intention and direction. Therefore, there is a distrust of all of Church history and now some current house church movements are looked at as the restoring of the original Book of Acts Church.
What this also means is that there was always just a very small minority of those who somehow held to the truth, and the majority was always wrong. Does this type of thinking seem familiar?
I took a phone call once from a man who stated that he could not find others who believed his gospel. My first assumption was that, after he left the pastorate, he was simply having a hard time finding other fellow believers who would hold to similar convictions. After two hours on the phone with this man, I realized he was preaching another gospel (Galatians 1:8). His argument was that, after the death of the apostles, the truth died and only now, in the twenty-first century, it had been revived and he was the messenger. If someone attended a church of any kind, he stated, they were believing a lie (2 Thessalonians 2:11) and lost! When he asked me what my gospel was, I shared with him the blood atonement of Jesus Christ. His reaction was curse words!
One term for this type of thinking is Restorationism, which means the truth was lost with the apostles and now in our modern day is being restored. Such thinking is the seed-bed of many
denominations and especially cults. Also this thinking is usually very exclusive, meaning that we have the truth that is restored and others do not. Even other restoration type groups fight amongst each other over who really is the group that the Lord is with. If Jesus came back, we could see the picture of all the leaders of these groups asking the Lord to verify their own church as the true and only church.
How do we know if our actions and words today are following in the same spirit of some of the opposers of the Gospel in the beginning of the Church? One test we can take is to ask ourselves: Do we consider God's Church sacred? (1 Corinthians 3:17). Or do we speak and treat other believers with little care, speaking our mind strongly and seeking to prove what we feel is right at any cost?
I have heard some people in our modern day speak without blushing that the entire Church has been wrong throughout history, and they now understand the true way. Most of the people I have heard espouse these new ideas do not fellowship in any church and also have moral laxity in their lives. In free thinking societies with complete religious freedom, we should have a great fear of God that we do not speak and teach in ways that are departing from “the faith once given to the saints” (Jude 1:3).
Being a Part of the Historic Church
Some believe that Church history began with Martin Luther in AD 1500, and to consider anything before that time is not worthwhile. Such thinking also has created a narrowed vision of the Church Jesus has established.
Perhaps we can consider another way of thinking. We can consider that the Lord has always had His Church (Matthew 16:18). It has not been perfect, has failed and, at times, has needed to be reformed and restored. There has always been a continuation in the work of God, and we are not called to start something new but rather continue something that is old. This does allow for new denominations but these groups should be helping to reform and build upon the 2000-year-old Church we are all a part of.
Individualistic evangelicalism has been leading to what today is over 42,000 denominations worldwide. God has called some of these groups to stand for a truth, yet not apart from the larger testimony of the Church throughout the ages. The Corinthians were of this individual carnal thinking, everyone doing what was right in their own eyes (1 Corinthians 3:4, Judges 21:25). It is a humbling reality that the Church did not begin with us and might not even end with us. We are just a part of God’s plan through the ages. Instead of trying to deconstruct what the Church is today, we should be seeking join with God’s testimony and possibly help reform it. What is exciting is that we can actually be a part of the Church Jesus is building in our day (Matthew 16:18). Being involved in a house church meeting can be very much the will of God and his leading.
Some things that keep us in line and with the historic Church is agreeance with statements of faith that ancient believers held to.
Along with common practices such as communion and water baptism, we can ensure we are a part of the Lord’s work by not being apart from other believers, or being so exclusive that we do not agree with any other believers in Church history.
Starting a house church can be a very simple thing to do but we must carry with it the solemn sense of carrying on what Jesus and the early apostles did.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2017/8/28 7:08Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5088
NC, USA

 Re:

"Pagan Christianity" by Frank Viola discusses this topic. I've never read it but I've read about it.


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Todd

 2017/8/28 7:10Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1624


 Re:

Yes the practice of having one Pastor over the entire Church is not Biblical. Paul asks Titus to appoint elders.
Titus 1-5:- The reason I left you in Crete was to set in order the remaining matters and to appoint elders in every town, as I directed you.

'Elders', the word used here is in plural. Which means there should be more than 1 person leading every Church. ALso they should be appointed not elected. Democracy of electing elders is not God's desire at all.

Also Elders should be working voluntarily not by receiving salary like a hired hand. Because they receive a salary, they try to please men than God in their sermons!

1 Peter 5:1 - Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, 2 shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness.

You can do more research by searching for 'Elders' in the bible.

Also regarding the congregation just being passive listeners, it is not at all Biblical.

1 Cor 14:26- What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; 28 but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment.

Just read the scripture and compare it to any institutional church of today. We find these scriptures not at all being applied. One might sight big number as a reason. But it is not true. I was part of Churches with over 200 people gathering, still there will be multiple speakers among the brothers. There will also be open call for prophets to share during the meetings.

Do we want to honor God's word or follow the institutional pattern? Most of them are contend to attend such institutional churches because if they step into Home Fellowship, they have to sacrifice something thing. People themselves are happy to be just be visitors in Church rather than being part of a Body of Believers.

Church is compared to a Body of Believers. In a body every part plays a role, hence in the Church as well, everyone who is committed to that body should have a function. Just one person running the show is not a church but just a gathering place or club.


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Sreeram

 2017/8/28 9:25Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1624


 Re:

If your friend is basing his argument on Bible then he will find the Church I am part of in US matching the pattern. But pattern is not the most important thing. I do not want people to come to our church because we have the right pattern. The most important thing in a Church is the presence of God not the pattern. Yes we need to run the Church based on God's word with Christ alone being the head.

Hence I would suggest people not just be carried away with pattern but seek for a church that has God's presence.


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Sreeram

 2017/8/28 9:25Profile









 Modern Church versus Early Church

If you compare modern church and early church which the Apostles started, there is a very huge different...

If church today will have a head pastor like Apostle Paul, many people will leave the church...

Well known professing churches today is a psychology assembly...

 2017/8/28 19:17
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 769


 Re: Modern Church versus Early Church

Brother Greg,

What IS the problem? Is there a root cause or many root causes? Are there different types of problems in institutional vs house churches? I would love to hear y'all's perspective on this.

 2017/8/28 19:26Profile





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