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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : concerning baptism

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PosterThread
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Like I said before, I was only musing (thinking) about the possibility. Since we are indeed baptized into His death (Romans 6:3), and since all of the sacrifices since the beginning have consisted of placing the blood on the altar, as well as once a year having the blood placed on the Mercy Seat, which again is a picture of Christ (at the day of Atonement, always celebrated on the 10th of Tishre).......it is really not a stretch to consider being baptized into Christ's precious blood.


It is an enormous stretch. Blood was sprinkled on the altar or poured out. If you cannot distinguish between sprinking and baptising how did we get into this discussion?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/7/6 18:24Profile









 Re:

Washed in the Blood? Is their power in the Blood, the power to make your sins white as snow?

What about this song? Do you find any back-up for any of it in your own Bible?

"you been to Jesus for the cleansing power?
Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?
Are you fully trusting in His grace this hour?
Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb? "

Not according to the new Bible Per-Versions!

Not according to the New International Version (NIV), New American Standard Version (NASV), New Living Bible, New Revised Standard Versions (NRSV), Revised Standard Version (RSV), The Living Bible (TLB), Today’s English Version, Contemporary English Version (CEV), International Standard Version: (ISV) and the other Per-Versions!

Revelation 1:5 clearly reads in the King James Bible:

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and WASHED US FROM OUR SINS IN HIS OWN BLOOD, (KJB)

But you are NOT "WASHED IN THE BLOOD" in the New Per-Versions . . .

American Standard Version (ASV) reads:

and from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loveth us, and LOOSED US FROM OUR SINS BY HIS BLOOD;

Amplified Bible reads:

and from Jesus Christ the faithful and trustworthy Witness, the First-born of the dead [first to be brought back to life] and the Prince (Ruler) of the kings of the earth. To Him Who ever loves us, and has once [for all] loosed and freed us from our sins by His own blood.

Contemporary English Version (CEV) reads:

May kindness and peace be yours from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness. Jesus was the first to conquer death, and he is the ruler of all earthly kings. Christ loves us, and by his blood he set us free from our sins.

Good News for Modern Man reads:

and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn Son who was raised from death, who is also the ruler of the kings of the earth. He loves us, and by his death he has FREED US FROM OUR SINS

International Standard Version (ISV) reads:

and from Jesus Christ, the witness, the faithful one, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To the one who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood;

Living Bible (TLB) reads:

and from Jesus Christ who faithfully reveals all truth to us. He was the first to rise from death, to die no more. He is far greater than any king in all the earth. All praise to him who always loves us and who set us free from our sins by pouring out his lifeblood for us.

New American Standard Version (NASV) reads:

and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood

New Century Version (NCV) reads:

and from Jesus Christ, Jesus is the faithful witness, the first among those raised from the dead. He is the ruler of the kings of the earth. He is the One who loves us, who made us free from our sins with the blood of his death.

New International Version (NIV) reads:

and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,

New Living Bible reads:

and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness to these things, the first to rise from the dead, and the commander of all the rulers of the world. All praise to him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by shedding his blood for us.

New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) reads:

and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and freed us from our sins by his blood

New Testament in Modern English (J.B. Phillips) reads:

and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, firstborn of the dead, and ruler of kings upon earth. To him who loves us and has set us free from our sins through his own blood

Revised Standard Version (RSV) reads:

and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the first-born of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood

Today’s English Version reads:

and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first to be raised from death and who is also the ruler of the kings of the world. He loves us, and by his sacrificial death he has FREED US FROM OUR SINS

The shocking FACT is – NOWHERE in the new Per-Versions do they read "YOU ARE WASHED IN THE BLOOD"!

I repeat – NOWHERE do the new Per-Versions read "you are washed in the blood"!

What can wash away my sins?
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

What can wash away my sins?
Nothing . . . According to the new Per-Versions

Oh Happy day when Jesus washed my sins away! – NOT according to the NIV, NASV, NCV, CEV, at al!

According to the NIV, NASV, NCV, CEV and other Per-Versions – Jesus Christ did not wash your sins away!

Why don’t we "update" our "archaic", "hard to understand" song books?

Have you been to Jesus for the loosing power?
Are you freed in the blood of the Lamb?
Are you fully trusting in His grace this hour?
Are you loosed in the blood of the Lamb?

What can loose away my sins?
Nothing but the blood of Jesus

Isn’t it irreverent and sacrilegious that these new Per-Version people will "update" the words of God — without "batting an eye" — and yet would not dare even consider "messing with" the song "Are You Washed In the Blood"!

Aren’t you glad Brother Elisha Hoffman, the author of "Are You Washed in the Blood", still read and believed the "updated" and "archaic" King James Bible? He might have come out with some silly occultic nonsense like Stephen Curtis Chapman’s "Lord of the Dance", or Carman’s blasphemous "Holy Ghost Hop", et al.

Consider the following wonderful, Christ-uplifting hymns that are contrary to the NIV, NASV, NLB, NRSV, RSV ASV, NCV, CEV, and the other "legions" (Mark 5:9) of Per-Versions!

Jesus paid it all,
All to Him I owe;
Sin had left a crimson stain,
He WASHED IT WHITE AS SNOW.
— Jesus Paid It All

Just as I am, and waiting not
To rid my soul of one dark blot,
To Thee whose blood can cleanse each spot,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.
— Just As I Am

Happy day, happy day, when Jesus washed my sins away!
He taught me how to watch and pray, and live rejoicing every day
Happy day, happy day, when Jesus washed my sins away.
— O Happy Day

Lord Jesus, for this I most humbly entreat,
I wait, blessed Lord, at Thy crucified feet.
By faith, for my cleansing, I see Thy blood flow,
Now wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
— White Than Snow

Blessèd assurance, Jesus is mine!
O what a foretaste of glory divine!
Heir of salvation, purchase of God,
Born of His Spirit, washed in His blood.
— Blessed Assurance

There is a BLOOD-WASHED MULTITUDE, a mighty army strong;
The Lord of hosts their righteousness, redeeming love their song.
— The Blood Washed Throng

There is a fountain filled with blood drawn from Emmanuel’s veins;. . .
The dying thief rejoiced to see that fountain in his day;
And there have I, though vile as he, washed all my sins away.
Washed all my sins away, washed all my sins away;
And there have I, though vile as he, washed all my sins away.
— There Is A Fountain Filled With Blood

I don’t know about you — but thank God (and no thanks to the new Per-Versions) — "I’m Washed in the Blood of the Lamb"!

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, (KJB)

God bless,

Stever

 2005/7/9 2:27









 Re:

The Blood of the Lamb

It was the shed blood of the lamb that made the difference between Abel and Cain (Hebrews 11:4) and between the Israelites and the Egyptians (Exodus 12:13). It is the shed blood of the Lamb of God that marks the difference between the Saved and those still in their sins, and that will differentiate between the song of the redeemed and the wailing of those cast into the furnace of fire (Revelations 5:9-10, Matt. 13:49-50).

The precious shed blood of Jesus Christ is that which procures every blessing which the Christian enjoys. It is -

The Power of our Sanctification. Hebrews 13:12 "Wherefore Jesus, also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered without the gate."

The Pledge of our Blessing. Luke 22:20 "This cup is the New Testament in My blood which is shed for you."

The Price of our Purchase. Acts 20:28 "The church of God which He hath purchased with His own blood."

The Liberty of our Access. Hebrews 10:19 "Having, therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus."

The Theme of our Praise. Revelation 5:9 "Unto Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood."

The Certainty of our Overcoming. Revelation 12: 11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb."

The Ground of our Peace. Colossians 1:20 "Having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself."

The Channel of our Forgiveness. Ephesians 1:7 "In whom we have redemption through His blood the forgiveness of sins."

The Means of our Cleansing. I John 1:7 "The blood of Jesus Christ, His Son, cleanseth us from all sin."

God bless,

Stever

 2005/7/9 2:39









 Re:

No Blood-No Remission!!

Man's greatest need is to be forgiven of his sins. This can only be done through faith in the blood of Jesus.

"...without shedding of blood is no remission" (Heb. 9:22).

"...when I see the blood, I will pass over you..." (Ex. 12:13).

By Pastor Ross L. Range

There are a lot of people today who try to add to the finished work of Jesus Christ. There are those who say that one must be baptized or join the church, or hold out faithful to the end, in order to be saved. There are those who get people to say they believe in Christ and then say that they are saved. There is more to being saved than just a simple profession. There must be a conviction of sin and an acceptance by faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Many people are deceived by Satan into believing that they are saved when they are not really born again.

The Bible is clear in the fact that it is only through faith in the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, in His complete and perfect sacrifice, that alone is the way people are saved.

Redeemed Through Blood

As the scripture says, "...we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace" (Eph. 1:7). To be redeemed means to be bought back. The price has been paid and it is through the blood of Jesus Christ.

Peter reminds us of this when he says, "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold... But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:" (1 Peter 1:18-19).

Justified by Blood

To be justified means to be declared free. We know the Bible teaches that all are sinners. all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, there is none righteous, no, not one. No one deserves to be saved because of his goodness, but thank God, Jesus Christ died for sinners, shed His precious blood because of His love for us. The scripture says, "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." (Rom. 5:9). the word justified literally means "just as if I had never sinned." The blood of Jesus Christ is what has paid for our sins.

Washed in His Blood

There are some who believe that baptism washes away sins. This is not scriptural. The Bible says, "Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood" (Rev. 1:5). When one hears the Word, the Holy Spirit takes the word and convicts or sin, of righteousness, of judgment and works godly sorrow which brings repentance and faith; faith in the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. Our sins are washed away in His blood.

Made Nigh (Close) by Blood

Man is alienated from God, strangers from the covenant of promise, no hope without God in the world! "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ" (Eph. 2:13). Jesus broke down the middle wall of partition and makes the way possible for us to enter into the very presence of God because He has sprinkled His blood on the mercy seat as an atonement for our sins. Therefore, we are made nigh by His blood.

Sanctified by Blood

The word sanctify means set apart from our sins, set apart from the world through the blood of Jesus Christ. As Paul says, "Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate" (Heb. 13:12). Jesus was crucified outside the city of Jerusalem on that old hill called Calvary in order that we might be set apart from our sins. He shed His own blood on that cross. What can make me whole again, nothing but the blood of Jesus? What can wash away my sins, nothing but the blood of Jesus? We are sanctified by His blood.

Peace through Blood

Man is at odds with God. We have sinned against Him. We have been alienated from Him, but thank God through the blood of Jesus Christ, we can have peace with Him. Paul says, "And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself" (Col. 1:20).

Cleansed through Blood

God's children are redeemed through the blood and justified through the blood, washed in His blood, made high by the blood, sanctified by the blood, and have peace through the blood and daily we are cleansed by the blood of Jesus. Whenever we sin, we plead the blood of Jesus. For John says, "If we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1 John 1:7). In other words, we stay in fellowship with Jesus Christ our Saviour by daily trusting in the cleansing blood. We all sin every day, but "if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (verse 9). This means that the daily walk of the children of God are cleansed by the blood of Jesus.

Conscience Purged by Blood

When one understands the real meaning of being forgiven our sins, and having the Spirit of God living within us as children of God, one will want to live for Jesus. The Holy Spirit puts that desire in our heart and Paul reminds us that it wasn't the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He has obtained eternal redemption for us and says, "how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" (Heb. 9:14).

Just think of it, Christ died for my sins. Jesus shed His precious blood, gave His all that I might be saved from the guilt and penalty and finally from the presence of sin. I owe Him everything I am.

Bought with a Price

I do not belong to myself. If you are saved you do not belong to yourself. you are bought by the precious blood of Jesus Christ. This should, and will cause us to want to live for Him. As Paul says, "Ye are not your own? for ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's" (I Cor. 6:19-20).

What can wash away my sins, nothing but the blood of Jesus? What can make me whole again, nothing but the blood of Jesus? So, there is no remission outside the blood of Jesus. You cannot mix blood and water, or blood and church membership, or blood and works, or any other thing, simply through faith in the blood of Jesus Christ do we have remission of our sins. Praise God for salvation by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ! If you have not received Him by faith, why not today?


God bless,

Stever

 2005/7/9 2:45









 Re:

In order to become a child of God, you must:

1. repent of your sins

2. believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins and that He rose the third day

3. confess the Lord Jesus
-----------
What exactly happened on that cross almost 2,000 years ago? Jesus shed His blood and that blood paid for the sins of all mankind

The Blood of Jesus--What about it?
. . . . . . . . . . .
When we turn back to the Old Testament of the Bible, we see that after sin entered into the world, God required the blood sacrifice of animals for the atonement of sins.

Leviticus 17:11, For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Leviticus 4:3-5 If the priest that is anointed do sin...then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering....he shall... lay his hand upon the bullock's head, and kill the bullock before the LORD. And the priest that is anointed shall take of the bullock's blood, and bring it to the tabernacle of the congregation...
But the blood of the animals still couldn't do the trick. The Israelites were still unfaithful to their God as evidenced by their awhoring after other gods. A better sacrifice was needed.

Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

God promised His people, the Jewish people, a new covenant about 600 years before the coming of Christ. We will see that this covenant would also require blood.

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
In the Bible, we have the Old Testament (or Hebrew Scriptures) and the New Testament. Both were ushered in by blood. The Old Testament came by the blood of animals. The New Testament by the blood of Jesus Christ.
------
Old Testament

Exodus 24:8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.
Hebrews 9:18-20 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

----------
New Testament

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
--Jesus Christ
The animal sacrifices of the Old Testament were only a picture of the ultimate sacrifice. When Jesus Christ went to the cross almost 2,000 years ago, He was the ULTIMATE sacrifice. A bloody sacrifice indeed.

• His skin was whipped off,
• His beard was torn out of his cheeks,
• His head pierced with thorns,
• His face beaten to a pulp. He was unrecognizable. The Bible says He was more marred than ANY man.
• His hands and feet were nailed through with thick spikes,
• His side pierced with a spear after He died.

The sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, completely abolished the system of animal sacrifice forever. The animal sacrifices of the Old Testament were only a picture, a figure, of the true sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Their blood was only a figure of the true blood that would be shed thousands of years later on a cross outside the city of Jeruselem. The animal sacrifices were...
Hebrews 9:9 ...a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience...
9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

The blood of animals had to be shed over and over but the blood of Jesus was shed only one time. The Catholic religion does not understand this and contends that the blood is shed over and over again in the mass, but the Bible says something different:
Hebrews 10:12, ...after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God.
Hebrews 7:27 ...this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Hebrews 9:28 ...Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many...
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
The blood of Jesus is powerful. It is a saving, healing blood. Jesus Saves!!!!!!

God bless,

Stever

 2005/7/9 2:58
HakkaMin
Member



Joined: 2004/4/12
Posts: 60
Taiwan

 Re:

So, Stever … you honestly believe that the concept of our being “washed” (or cleansed) by the blood of Jesus is not found in non-KJV versions of the Bible?


_________________
Gregg Dennington

 2005/7/9 4:33Profile
HakkaMin
Member



Joined: 2004/4/12
Posts: 60
Taiwan

 Re:

Could I also ask a personal favor of you, Stever? Would you please not label as “perversion” the Bible that I treasure as the inspired Word of God? If only as a gesture of consideration and brotherly respect for those of us (ignorant as you might believe us to be) who don’t share your views on the KJO issue. Thank you for your kind – and gracious - regard in this.

Many blessings!


_________________
Gregg Dennington

 2005/7/9 4:52Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

stever has produced a comprehensive list of benefits and consequences of Christ's death under the idea of His Blood. I note that it still does not included any reference to 'baptism into Christ's blood'.

I think we need to say something more about the Blood of Christ before we slip into superstition. The Bible language relating to Christ's blood is a synonym for His death at Calvary. There was nothing magical or mystical about the physical 'blood' of Christ. Those who nailed Him were probably spattered with it and he who pierced Him was probably awash in it. So far as we know none of these were benefited in any way by the 'blood of Christ'.

The Blood of Christ is 'bible-shorthand' for Christ's life poured out in death. The consequences of this death are many and far reaching, and stever's list is relevant here, but neither the Blood of Christ nor the Cross of Christ has any intrinsic value; that is, the physical blood and cross even if they had been preserved, as Catholicism used to proclaim, they would have had no power in or of themselves. The phrases are synonyms for the sacrificial gift of the Son of God in the redemption secured at Golgotha.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/7/9 5:06Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Stever writes

Quote:
The shocking FACT is – NOWHERE in the new Per-Versions do they read "YOU ARE WASHED IN THE BLOOD"!

I repeat – NOWHERE do the new Per-Versions read "you are washed in the blood"!


Now this is great for street corner preaching but for a more considered view we need to talk patiently to each other. The book of the Revelation has some unique elements when it comes to ascertaining the original text. Erasmus' famous first attempt on a Greek text was based on a single copy of the Revelation and that had holes in it! (The cursive manuscript Apoc. 1, his only Greek source for the book of Revelation, was scarcely legible in places, and it lacked the final leaf containing the last six verses of the book. ) Consequently even the most enthusiastic advocates of the Received Text (and I am one) are usually slightly more cautious when it comes to the Revelation.

Erasmus' third edition (1522) was the text for Tyndale's translation. Erasmus' fourth and fifth edition were closely followed by Robert Estienne (the Stephen's text) and became the basis for the King James Version. Erasmus' text consequently became the foundation for nearly all editions and translations of the Greek text for the next two centuries. But 'textual criticism' is a work in progress and we do not serve anyone by pretending that a particular editor has created a golden text which is identical to the original autographs.

The main editors since Erasmus have been:

Stephens 1550 (Estienne 1550)
Elzevir 1624
Griesbach 1805
Lachmann 1842
Tischendorf 1869
Tregelles 1857
Alford 1849 as revised in 1871
Wordsworth 1856 as revised in 1870 
Westcott & Hort 1881
Nestle-Aland 1979 (Aland et al. 1979)
Hodges & Farstad 1982 as corrected in 1985

Each of these editors has had a different philosophy and anyone with a copy of the Interlinear Greek NT based on Stephens (created by Thomas Newberry) will have an brief introduction to some of these. Strictly speaking the 'Received Text' is that produced by Elzevir in 1624 which used the phrase in the preface. (the KJV, by definition, was not based on the 'Received Text' which was created later!?! Funny old world we live in!!)

The text in question is
Rev. 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Of the above editors for this verse, Lachmann, Tischendorf, Tregelles, Alford (margin), Wescott and Hort, Nestle-Aland do not have the word 'washed' but have the word 'loosed' instead; why?

The Greek word for 'washed' here is 'lousanti' (louO) while the Greek word for 'loosed' would be 'lusanti' (luO); a difference of a single letter. This would give us 'who loosed us from our sins in (by) his blood'. I reject the conspiracy theory of textual criticism. An error has taken place here in the copying, but in which direction?

Is there any other verse of scripture which has this image of 'washing in blood'? No. In the OT the blood of the sacrifice was sprinkled and by that process the efficacy of the sacrifice was applied to the sprinkled ones. This OT pattern would link in well with a family of Greek words which is very important in NT doctrine. They are words linked to 'luO' which means to release.
lusis, meaning to loose or divorce.
lutron, the ransom price
lutroO, to ransom or redeem
lutrOsis, redemption
lutrOtes, a redeemer
antilutron, the redemption price
you will see the idea by now. a price is paid to secure the release. This is actually a much more biblical concept than that of being 'washed in blood'. The price is the life poured out in the death of the cross. In fact, it fits much better with the context too; “And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.” (Rev. 1:5-6, KJVS) The metaphor here is clearly the exodus and the covenant at Sinai. The people of Israel, of course, were never 'washed in blood', but they were 'redeemed by blood' which was struck onto the door posts and lintels. This is a familiar metaphor of the NT that the Church is God's Israel 'blood bought' and 'separated to Him'.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/7/9 9:24Profile









 Re:

Once we are Baptized into the Holy Ghost we have received the “Overflow” of the Holy Spirit, that empowers the Christian believer. Those of us who have received this Baptism know, that we know, that we know this event has taken place. Our lives are changed, immediately. We are imbued with power from on-high to? To do what? To witness to the Lost! We receive this power and boldness immediately, it does not develop over time. It is an immediate change in who and what we are. It is the “Promise of the Father” as promised by Jesus Christ. As it prophesizes in Joel about this end-time event where the Spirit is poured out UPON all flesh and when will it cease?? When Christ comes again at His Second Coming (read the entire Book of Joel for clarification):” 28. And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29. And also UPON the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I POUR OUT my spirit.” [Joel 2:28-29]

With that being said, how do we respond to the skeptic? How do we respond to the intellectual that probably knows his Bible better than anyone? How can we prove to ourselves and others as well that there is a difference between receiving Christ (Salvation- the Indwelling) and The Promise of the Father told to us by Christ Jesus- The Baptism of the Holy Spirit where the Holy Spirit comes UPON the Christian believer?

I have been thinking about this for some time, as I have watched this thread develop to an interest in the “Promise of the Father”, to the present point where there is skepticism and misunderstanding--misunderstanding between Physical & Spiritual Baptism; misunderstanding about the time frame of when we beome “saved” and the moment that the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believer; and the misunderstanding of “The Promise of the Father” where the Holy Spirit comes UPON the believer and empowers the believer to witness. It is my intent to try and solve this confusion by using Scripture, and let God’s Word reveal the answers to us. The Bible defines it’s own terms. We will focus only on God’s Word. As Christ tells us through the lips of Paul “12. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14. Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.” [Hebrews 4:12-16].

Clearly there are 4 parts to every baptism: 1) The Baptizer; 2) the Baptizee; 3) The Element; 4) The Purpose

Let’s break down Water Baptism as an example. It takes place after the person becomes a believer in Jesus Christ. It is a “Physical” Baptism and not the “Spiritual” Baptism and takes place usually after we:
1. Repent of our sins
2. Believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins and that He rose the third day
3. Confess the Jesus Christ as LORD

The Baptizer: is typically our Pastor.
The Baptizee: is/was you and me after we became believers
The Element: is the water.
The Purpose: The purpose of this Baptism is several fold. Specifically we are saying to the World, and to God Almighty that we trust Him as our Lord and Savior. That we believe that Jesus Christ lived and died for our sins, and that He was resurrected on the 3rd day and is alive today. With the water being the element, we are placed into this element and as the water passes over us we are saying that if we die, and go down to the grave, underwater, that we also believe that God will bring us out of the grave (water), ALIVE. That God will resurrect us on that day! This Baptism is our statement of faith to the world, that we are now Christians, and believe Jesus Christ is LORD.

How does this Baptism, the Baptism of the New Believer in water differ from other Baptism’s found in God’s word? The other two Baptism’s found in the Bible are “Spiritual” Baptism’s. Both Spiritual Baptism’s are received by an Act of Faith, and the Baptizer of each one is different.

The New Believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit comes to live within the heart of the believer. This event consists of:

Baptizer: The Holy Spirit
Baptizee: You/Me and all believers that come to a saving grace in Jesus Christ
Element: That is the hard part, but I believe that it is the Blood of Jesus Christ- but to be fair, the Bible is not 100% Specific
Purpose: To Sanctify the believer

This Baptism (above) has nothing to do with water. It is a Spiritual Baptism that takes place immediately when we receive/believe (invite in) the Gospel and involves an act of Faith on our part. “5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) (Ephesians 2:5);
Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us the same thing “8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
We cannot boast about this, because God has given us the faith-we can take no credit.

When we ask Christ to come into our life and believe that He would do so, Christ comes into us, through the Holy Spirit and brings our Spirit back to life, and stays there till the redemption at the Rapture. John 14:16-20 tells us “16. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you FOREVER;
17. Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for HE DWELLETH WITH YOU, AND SHALL BE IN YOU.
18. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20. At that day (SALVATION-SPIRIT BAPTISM THAT IS ASSOCIATED WITH THE NEW BIRTH) ye shall know that I am in my Father, and YOU IN ME, AND I IN YOU.”

When this Baptism takes place we did not see it, touch it, or feel it, nor experience the “ME” being put into Jesus, but it happened. This is the miracle of Spirit Baptism that is associated with the New Birth, and has nothing to do with Water Baptism. The reason that I believe that the element is Christ’s blood is really quite simple. No man is saved unless he is washed in the blood. This is Salvation, a Spirit Baptism that results in our being placed into the Body of Christ.






The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is “The Promise of the Father” as mentioned by Jesus Christ in Acts 1:4-5 “4. And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
4. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”
How do we know that Jesus is the Baptizer of this baptism? John the Baptist tells us in Luke 3:16 “16. John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: HE (CHRIST) SHALL BAPTIZE YOU WITH THE HOLY GHOST AND WITH FIRE:”

Baptizer: Jesus Christ
Baptizee: The Christian believer that asks for this Baptism
Element: In the Holy Spirit, the “Living Water”
Purpose: To receive power to be a witness: Acts 1:8 “8. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”

We have two different Spiritual Baptisms with different purposes. One to put us into the body of Christ and another (The Baptism of the Holy Spirit) to give us the power to witness to the lost. One is a Spirit Baptism of Salvation where I was placed into the body of Christ----the purpose. The other, with another purpose, to give me the power to witness. Luke brings this together for us 24:44-48
44. And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45. THEN OPENED HE THEIR UNDERSTANDING [a miracle, by the power of the Holy Spirit], THAT THEY MIGHT UNDERSTAND THE SCRIPTURES,
46. And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47. And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48. And ye are witnesses of these things.

Does Christ tell them to go out now, now that they have the indwelling Holy Spirit that has opened up the Scriptures to them, and witness, and to go about His business? No, He tells them to wait in Jerusalem to be endued (clothed) with power from on high!!!! THE PROMISE HERE IS POWER, NOT NEW BIRTH!
“49. And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.”

I hope this has been helpful and I await your comments.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/7/9 17:54





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