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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Seeking help

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ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Seeking help

Here is the scripture:What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God.
3What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness? 4Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written:
"So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge."

5But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" 8Why not say—as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say—"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.
Rom:3:1-8 NIV

Even though Paul says that he is using a human argument, I am failing to see what he is getting at. Does anyone have any suggestions?


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2005/6/18 15:03Profile









 Re: Seeking help

In my translation (NASB) it has titled on top of it. "All the World Guilty".

And it deserves that rightly. Vs. 9 in the chapter. [i]9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; [/i]

In VS. 1, Paul doesn't nullify the idea of obeying the Law, because it's the very words of God that were spoken to do.(vs.2)

3 and 4 kinda just states, NO MATTER WHAT, GOD IS STILL FAITHFUL TO HIS PROMISES, even if we are FaithLESS.

The rest shows just that God is Holy, and it shows our sin (by the Law). And God condemning them by the Law, but God is STILL exalted, and receives Glory for it.

Think of a Judge who condemns a WICKED person, and His Judgement was correct and true. Wouldn't people Praise the Judge more?

I think, i really can't think of a better way to explain it all.

Wow, truly Ray Comfort has enlightened me on the book of Romans. Praise God!!!! *(i probly wouldn't have been able to answer this without his teachings)*

 2005/6/18 15:17
ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

Quote:

YeshuaIsMyGd wrote:
3 and 4 kinda just states, NO MATTER WHAT, GOD IS STILL FAITHFUL TO HIS PROMISES, even if we are FaithLESS.

SO in your understanding do promises and the law mean the same thing?


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2005/6/18 15:38Profile









 Re: Seeking help

See if this helps, please. I've taken out the verse numbers, so it flows better.

You boast about having God's law--but do you bring shame on God by breaking his law?

The scripture says, "Because of you Jews, the Gentiles speak evil of God." If you obey the Law, your circumcision is of value; but if you disobey the Law, you might as well never have been circumcised.

If the Gentile, who is not circumcised, obeys the commands of the Law, will not God regard him as though he were circumcised? And so you Jews will be condemned by the Gentiles because you break the Law, even though you have it written down and are circumcised; but they obey the Law, even though they are not physically circumcised.

After all, who is a real Jew, truly circumcised? It is not the man who is a Jew on the outside, whose circumcision is a physical thing. Rather, the real Jew is the person who is a Jew on the inside, that is, whose heart has been circumcised, and this is the work of God's Spirit, not of the written Law. Such a person receives his praise from God, not from man.

Do the Jews then have any advantage over the Gentiles? Or is there any value in being circumcised? Much, indeed, in every way! In the first place, God trusted his message to the Jews.

But what if some of them were not faithful? Does this mean that God will not be faithful? Certainly not! God must be true, even though every man is a liar. As the scripture says, "You must be shown to be right when you speak; you must win your case when you are being tried."

But what if our doing wrong serves to show up more clearly God's doing right? Can we say that God does wrong when he punishes us? (This would be the natural question to ask.)

By no means! If God is not just, how can he judge the world? But what if my untruth serves God's glory by making his truth stand out more clearly? Why should I still be condemned as a sinner? Why not say, then, "Let us do evil so that good may come"?

Some people, indeed, have insulted me by accusing me of saying this very thing! They will be condemned, as they should be.

Well then, are we Jews in any better condition than the Gentiles? Not at all! I have already shown that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.

As the Scriptures say: "There is no one who is righteous, no one who is wise or who worships God. All have turned away from God; they have all gone wrong; no one does what is right, not even one. Their words are full of deadly deceit; wicked lies roll off their tongues, and dangerous threats, like snake's poison, from their lips; their speech is filled with bitter curses. They are quick to hurt and kill; they leave ruin and destruction wherever they go. They have not known the path of peace, nor have they learned reverence for God."

Now we know that everything in the Law applies to those who live under the Law, in order to stop all human excuses and bring the whole world under God's judgment. For no one is put right in God's sight by doing what the Law requires; what the Law does is to make man know that he has sinned.

But now God's way of putting people right with himself has been revealed. It has nothing to do with law, even though the Law of Moses and the prophets gave their witness to it. God puts people right through their faith in Jesus Christ.

God does this to all who believe in Christ, because there is no difference at all: everyone has sinned and is far away from God's saving presence. But by the free gift of God's grace all are put right with him through Christ Jesus, who sets them free.

God offered him, so that by his sacrificial death he should become the means by which people's sins are forgiven through their faith in him. God did this in order to demonstrate that he is righteous.

In the past he was patient and overlooked people's sins; but in the present time he deals with their sins, in order to demonstrate his righteousness. In this way God shows that he himself is righteous and that he puts right everyone who believes in Jesus.

What, then, can we boast about? Nothing! And what is the reason for this? Is it that we obey the Law? No, but that we believe.

For we conclude that a person is put right with God only through faith, and not by doing what the Law commands.

Or is God the God of the Jews only? Is he not the God of the Gentiles also? Of course he is. God is one, and he will put the Jews right with himself on the basis of their faith, and will put the Gentiles right through their faith.

Does this mean that by this faith we do away with the Law? No, not at all; instead, we uphold the Law.

(Today's English Version - Romans 2:23 - 3:31)

Many translations are available at
[url=http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm]http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm[/url] - but no NIV there.

I think you have to read the whole 'argument' Paul is making, because it is an important one.

It is clear from other parts of the New Testament, that through the Holy Spirit believers are expected to keep 'the Law', under the terms of the New Covenant or rather, to find the righteousness of Christ imputed to them through faith, as has already been mentioned ...

Basically, Paul is saying the Jews were important because God entrusted His word [i]to the world[/i] through them, but, they themselves have not kept the Law, so they are as much in need of salvation as the Gentiles.

The purpose of God's revelation is that we may be aware of His definitions of sin and, cease from sin, and anyone who thinks the availability of forgiveness gives them licence to sin [i][b]more[/b][/i], should be condemned for even suggesting this.

Paul points out some have slandered him by using this logic to distort the meaning of the gospel.

 2005/6/18 15:55
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Seeking help

Well this is most interesting. Was downloading and away for awhile and just caught this.

This is exactly what I was reading through earlier this morning.

Would say to go back a bit and then go forward past this section to get more of Paul's intent.

I had started back in Chapter 2...

"For circumcision verily profiteth, [b][u]if[/u][/b] thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, [b]if it fulfil the law[/b], judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is [b]one outwardly[/b]; [i][b]neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh[/b][/i]: But he is a Jew, which is one [b]inwardly[/b]; and [i][b]circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit[/b][/i], and [b][u]not[/u][/b] [i]in the letter[/i]; [b]whose praise is not of men[/b], but of God. Rom 2:25-29

Think Paul is laying the ground work to prove Gods justification as well as the 'order' of things. Just as Jesus accused the Pharisees of the hypocrisy in cleaning the outside of the cup ("in the letter") that by doing things in the outward fashion they thought could still obtain Gods approval all the while harboring all kinds of evil within their hearts.

Quote:
5But if [b]our[/b] unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.)


Could be wrong here but I think the "our" Paul is referring to is to the Jews, to himself as well as his hearers. Meaning that "we" (us Jews) have the oracles of God (The KJV has it differently in verse 2 right after "Much in everyway!" '[i]:chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.[/i]) to "us" was given the law, to Israel, the Jews. In other words, "Just because we blew it and never understood it correctly, because of our folly now God is using it to further His own righteousness, do we get off the hook?" [i]Surely not![/i]

Going further on there is a couple of words that really stand out; "Counted" and "Accounted" and by the time you get to chapter 5 the realization of what God wants is [i][b]Faith[/b][/i]...

It's amazing how many times one can go through things and suddenly they strike you just a slight bit differently, even if you have 'known' it all along and nodded your head a bazillion times...

Hope this is making some sense here, my whole perspective from this since this morning may be altogether different than what ZekeO is asking.

One last thought in bold up above: "Fulfil" another key word.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/6/18 16:48Profile









 Re:

Quote:

SO in your understanding do promises and the law mean the same thing?



Sorry for such a late reply, i just forgot to go back to this thread...sorry!!

But how do you get that outta what i was saying?

And i think the other posters helped out the first person that was in need. *That is always encouraging*

 2005/6/20 2:06
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Seeking help

Hi ZekeO
Sorry, late to the party. Is this clarifying for you yet? There is a little comment in John Wesley's commentary;Verse 5. But, it may be farther objected, if our unrighteousness be subservient to God’s glory, is it not unjust in him to punish us for it? I speak as a man?—As human weakness would be apt to speak. Is this where you are struggling to catch Paull's thought? The psalm quoted is Psalm 51 and is part of David's consideration of the nature of what he has done. Is it the word 'so' in your TEV Rom 3:4 (that in the KJV) which is causing the problems? Try substituting the word 'thus' for 'so' and see if it makes more sense.

The word could be translated 'consequently'. It does not mean 'in order that' nor 'subsequently' as if one statement is the logical deduction of another, but simply that the 'consequence' of this is that God is justified in His judgment. It is sometimes missed that Paul is as anxious to 'justify God' in Romans as he is to explain how God justifies men. “To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.”
(Rom. 3:26, KJVS)


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/20 6:51Profile
ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Making sense

Quote:

YeshuaIsMyGd wrote:
Quote:

SO in your understanding do promises and the law mean the same thing?



But how do you get that outta what i was saying?

The reason I ask is because I have always thought that the law was different from the promises of God. Maybe I am seeing the law in the wrong light and have a bad attitude toward it, but that is why I wrote that.


_________________
Zeke Oosthuis

 2005/6/20 15:27Profile
ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 The dimmer switch was faulty

Quote:

dorcas wrote:
The purpose of God's revelation is that we may be aware of His definitions of sin and, cease from sin, and anyone who thinks the availability of forgiveness gives them licence to sin [i][b]more[/b][/i], should be condemned for even suggesting this.

This ties in with Rom 6:1 [i]What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?[/i] Makes sense. I think my confusion came because of looking at who he was talking to in different parts of the passage. Swinging from adressing Jews and then Gentiles and them both together.


_________________
Zeke Oosthuis

 2005/6/20 15:33Profile









 Re: The dimmer switch was faulty

It is not 'easy' to 'get' first time round! Glad the mist is clearing from the text. 8-)

 2005/6/20 15:45





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