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Joined: 2005/6/8
Posts: 62
Orange Park, FL


i know everyone is gonna think i've lost my mind after i post this message, but i'll post it anyway.

i went to eat at the mexican restaurant tonight. i was seated in a room that had 7 or 8 tables in it. i looked around and noticed every table (except for mine) had someone consuming an alcoholic beverage. i'm not more holier than anyone else so i wasn't looking down my nose at them. and i'm not saying you're hellbound if you drink one beer either. i guess i just felt a feeling of uneasiness there as if it wasn't a very christlike atmosphere. i wondered to myself: i wonder how many of these people know Christ as their personal savior?

what do others think about this?
should we simply stay away from places like this?



 2005/6/18 0:08Profile

Joined: 2004/5/6
Posts: 309
Washington st. u.S. A.

 Re: alcohol

dennis wrote:

"i guess i just felt a feeling of uneasiness there as if it wasn't a very christlike atmosphere."

Jesus first miracle was making water into wine.
I believe it was a very Jesus atmosphere.
Matt 11:18-19 - "For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous,, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children."
Luke 19:10 - "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."
Matt. 9:12 - "But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick."

 2005/6/18 0:46Profile

Joined: 2005/4/26
Posts: 376
Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania


Dear Dennis,

You won't witness God's deliverance to any alcoholic by setting his idol before you at a bar, but you might if you don't set it before you.

A drunkard will not inherit the Kingdom of God. So, is drinking a little bit just being a little drunk?

I've read that wine was preserved in Jesus day by either drying grapes or by making a jelly like substance out of grapes. What I read stated that in the Tora there were rules saying how much water was to be added to the wine substance. The article also stated that the translated word for wine could mean alcohol but {new wine} fresh grape juice was the same Greek word. So, just think of what a miracle would take place if when there were no fresh grapes in season, Jesus would have made fresh wine.

Your own motives for being there are what is important, not what others are doing there while you are there.

In Christ,

Gary Eckenroth

 2005/6/18 1:41Profile


We live in the world, but we are not of the world. Let not your liberty be a stumbling block to others.

My wife and I are Co-Managers of a retirement home of about 100 senior citizens. I did not come through the front door preaching, or even testifying. Recently, I officiated in the marriage of a couple here. The groom is 95, the bride 92. Guess what. The news is now out that I'm a minister of the Gospel.
This job is very demanding, and at times stressful. We have some who are sooooo lovable, and some who are soooooo unlovable. They all know I'm a believer. I simply cannot afford the liberty of anything except letting my light shine each and every day. They watch us like hawks. I know that the least little act of carnality would stand out like a siren and a beacon light. I must be an ambassador of Christ at all times and in all things.
I thank God for this, because I hope to go back to the mission field before my years on earth come to an end. I know this is preparing me for something. Maybe it's just for tommorrow, if I'm fortunate to live that long.
The point is, all things are permitted, but not all things are us, and to others as well. Oh God, it's terrible for me to stumble and fall. To be the cause of anothers stumbling is more than I can bear. Lord Jesus, help us all to be Your Ambassadors, Your servants, Your friends. Help us to decrease, that You may increase, in Jesus' Holy Name. Amen.

 2005/6/18 7:46

Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776

 let God use our feelings to expose our attitudes

i guess i just felt a feeling of uneasiness there as if it wasn't a very christlike atmosphere. i wondered to myself: i wonder how many of these people know Christ as their personal savior?

I think that one's religous background/convictions in these matters determines their feelings - about the presence of alcohol or other outward "questionable" appearances. Those wine bottles on people's tables said NOTHING about their walk with God. There are many sincere Christians who drink alcohol - though many eveangelicals don't believe that.

On the contrary, there are many who never touch a drop of alcohol, yet their hearts are filled with hypocrisy. We might feel much more comfortable with them, but that is more because of familiarity than spiritual maturity.

Jesus gave the Jews many parables to expose their discomfort among the "sinners", and their own unconscious beliefs that they were less sinful. Perhaps God was using your situation in a similar way that he used a sheet with "unclean" animals in Peter' dream.

Just some thoughts....


 2005/6/18 13:03Profile

 Re: alcohol

what do others think about this?
should we simply stay away from places like this?

Diane's response is positively [i]ELECTRIC[/i] with food for thought.

My own thoughts are somewhat influenced by my own inability to deal with alcolhol, physically; a very small amount makes me swiftly unable to finish sentences, feel sleepy and, unbelievably bored with the present company. I become a worthless representation of the human being God is shapingn and therefore, I shy away from the drinking of alcohol as a pastime, although very occasionally I have had wine with a meal - usually to regret it for the reasons above.

Now, on what [i]others[/i] do, I am even more aware that the only drink one starts in a stone cold sober condition, is the first one. But, I don't think 'drinking' alcolholic beverage is a sin, unless one knows it is not how God wishes one to comport oneself. However, it is a bit of a mystery to me, how Christians can drink quite a lot, and don't feel uneasy about it. If nothing else, there is a clear scriptural connection between 'strong drink' and idolatry which I think Christians should shy away from, if they understand it. Of course, as Diane has pointed out, this may be pure hypocrisy if they are idolatrous in other ways.

I am not against the use of alcohol in cooking and I have not prevented my children from tasting it but, they know one of the reasons I did not persevere with accustoming myself to it is the random way liver cirrhosis attacks unsuspecting social drinkers. Take from this what you will.

Also, I have particularly enjoy fruit drinks. I have [i][b]no idea[/b][/i] why others do not drink more of them.

Lastly, there was one occasion when I was a guest in an extremely posh household for a weekend, and I was offered [i]their own[/i] sherry - from their vineyards - and I just felt I could not say 'no'. So, I prayed I would not do the usual dozing off and loss of verbal function, and the Lord kindly preserved me from any effects whatsoever; praise His Name!

 2005/6/18 17:19

Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164


Jesus first miracle was making water into wine.

Was the wine in Bible times really wine as we know it? (fermented) or was it mere grape juice? I don't know.. I'm sure someone here knows..

Josh Parsley

 2005/6/18 17:23Profile

Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 211


Was the wine in Bible times really wine as we know it? (fermented) or was it mere grape juice?

[i]Deacons in like manner 'must be' grave, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre[/i](1 Timothy 3:8)

Would that make any sense if we were to readit like this:

Deacons in like manner 'must be' grave, not double-tongued, not given to much grape juice, not greedy of filthy lucre.

 2005/6/18 17:39Profile

Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776

 Re: make the Bible fit our convictions??

I think we need to be cautious about trying to make the Bible fit our convictions, or trying to make laws for ourselves or others that are not in Scripture. That puts loads on people's consciences. Jesus and Paul prohibited this because it was so damaging - causing people to get emotionally disturbed with too much guilt - not being able to keep them, being caught in delemmas, feeling condemned for violating laws that they were taught.

Also, these laws embedded in our consciences have more authority over our decisions than the laws of the Spirit - ex the law of love.
I'm sure that you can think of many Biblical examples.

What happens, then, when we are around others who do something that - according to our conscience is wrong? (but not according to the Bible) There is a temptation to judge them according to our own inner laws - and that is exactly what the hypocrites in the Bible did.

That, I believe is why God sent the sheet down to Peter with all the bottles of wine in it - ooops, I mean all the unclean animals.

Am I correct in saying this:

There is no divine forgiveness for breaking a law that was not a divine law in the first place.

Extra laws in Jesus's day were made in order to maintain purity among the religous community, an attempt to improve one's status with God, but oh, what a prison for many. I think that's why Jesus on purpose did such things as not wash his hands before a meal. That would be the same as Jesus coming to eat at our house and skipping the pre-meal grace. Some of us might be horrified.


 2005/6/18 19:39Profile

Joined: 2005/4/22
Posts: 257
Seattle, Washington, USA

 Re: alcohol

Here's an article I came across. Hope this helps:

“In ancient times, wine was usually stored in large pointed jugs called amphorae.  When wine was to be used, it was poured from the amphorae into large bowls called craters where it was mixed with water.  From the kraters, cups or kylixs were then filled.  What is important for us to note is that before wine was ever drunk, it was mixed with water.  The kylixs were filled, not from the amphorae, but from the kraters.  The ratio of water to wine varied.  Homer mentions a ratio of 20:1”—twenty parts water to one part wine.  “In ancient works, Athenaeus, The Learned Banquet written to AD 200, we find in book 10 a collection of statements from earlier writers about drinking practices.  A quotation from a play by Aristophanes reads, ‘Here, drink this also: mingle three and two.’  Demus (sp.) says, ‘Zeus, but it’s sweet and bears the three parts well!’

So here again is an indication of history that it was always mixed.  There are mentions of everything from 2:1 to 20:1.  Now sometimes in history, the ratio of mixing water to wine goes down to 1:1 and when it does, it is not called wine, but it is called ‘strong drink.’”  This is important.  “Drinking wine unmixed, on the other hand, was looked upon as a ‘Scythian’ or barbarian custom. 

“Athenaeus, in his work, quotes Mnesitheus of Athens, and this is what he says: ‘The gods have revealed wine to mortals to be the greatest blessing for those who use it right, but for those who use it without measure, the reverse, for it gives food to them that take it and strength in mind and body and medicine that is beneficial.  It can be mixed with liquid and drugs and bring aid to the wounded.  In daily life, to those who mix and drink it moderately, it gives good cheer.  But if you overstep the bounds, it brings violence.  Mix it half and half, and you get madness!  Unmixed, bodily collapse!’ 

“From these incidents in history, it is evident that wine was seen in ancient times as a medicine or a solvent for medicines, and, of course, as a beverage!  Yet, as a beverage, it was always thought of as a mixed drink.  Plutarch says, ‘We call a mixture wine, although the larger of the components is water!’  The ratio of water might vary, but only barbarians drank it unmixed, and the mixture of wine and water of equal parts was called ‘strong drink’ and frowned on.  The term wine (or ‘oinos’ in the ancient world) then did not mean wine as we understand it today, but wine mixed with water!  In fact, when it was unmixed, they used the term ‘achratestaron,’ (sp.) which meant ‘unmixed wine.’”

Barbarians drank that, people who wanted to play around with the edges drank 1:1, but people who had sense and propriety always drank it mixed.  Even the Bible makes the distinction: “And the Lord spoke to Aaron, saying, ‘Drink no wine nor strong drink,” and there’s the differentiation, “when you go to the tent of the meeting.”

Well, there you can see people, the safest and easiest method of making water safe to drink was mixing it with wine, which acted a purifier.  But the wine was always safely diluted.  To say, “Because they drank wine in Bible times, I am free to drink it today” is to miss the point.  They drank it diluted because it purified the water.  In fact, in the early church an interesting note: unmixed wine was found unacceptable.  Always it had to be mixed with water.

I think that’s interesting.  To consume the amount of alcohol, listen, that is in two martinis, by drinking wine containing three parts water to one part wine, you would have to drink 22 glasses.  In other words, it is possible to become intoxicated from wine mixed with three parts of water, but one’s drinking would probably affect the bladder long before it affected the mind.  That’s pretty clear, isn’t it? 

People, what it means is this: nobody drank strong drink unless they were considered a barbarian."

Interesting article isn't it.


 2005/6/18 19:47Profile

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