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••• I think that is an extremely esoteric passage from apocalyptic literature and any attempt to literalize it and apply it to some future (to us) scenario is on exceedingly shaky exegetical and eschatological ground.

That's what I think.•••

Todd preterism is even more shaky exegetically. If you're applying this to 70 AD.

Bro Blaine

 2017/8/25 19:13









 Re:

Again I point out that there is a double standard in this forum. There are those who will quickly point out the heretical teachings of Joel Olsteen or Rick Warren or Ken Copelin . But yet will give John MacArthur a free card. Because he is a 5 point Calvinist with letters behind his name and yet holds to Sola Scriptura.  It is perfectly alright to allow him to teach heresy?

We are not talking about things such as modes of baptism or the timing of the rapture are forms of church government where there may be disagreement. We are talking about a point of doctrine where JM is saying that one can take the mark of the beast and still be redeemed. We are talking about the eternal destiny of one's soul if they take the mark. And this in clear contradiction to the scripture.

If we are going to be Sola Scriptura then let us look to the scriptures. 

••• So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth; and it became a loathsome and malignant sore on the people who had the mark of the beast and who worshiped his image.•••

Rev. 16:2

Doom for Worshipers of the Beast

      9Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11“And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” 12Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

      13And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them.”••• Rev. 14:9-13

This is Sola scriptura. These are what the scriptures testify. If one takes the mark of the beast they are declaring their allegiance to the Antichrist. They are declaring their allegiance to the devil. Once one takes that mark there is no repentance. The scriptures are quite clear on this.  

For someone such as John MacArthur with his influence to teach this will bear a stricter judgment according to James 3:1

••• Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.•••

Someone such as John MacArthur cannot be given a free card for teaching heresy just because he is a five-point Calvinist, Reformed, and has letters behind his name. I am sure some Calvinistic brethren would repudiate his position on there being redemption after one takes the mark in the tribulation.

John MacArthur must be put in the same category as the false teachers he condemns in the charismatic movement.  The teaching of the taking of the mark in the tribulation and there being redemption afterwards is erroneous.  His view is not supported by scripture and runs contrary to scripture. If he is not a false prophet then he is certainly a false teacher and I do not see a distinction between the two.

We are living in dark and deceptive times at cry for us to use discernment. Even those who once taught to Bible faithfully can fall away.  If they have fallen away such as John MacArthur. Then we must avoid their teaching like the plague.

Bro Blaine


 2017/8/25 19:35
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 Re:

Esoteric is a very interesting word, but first let us be reminded with this:

Revelations 22 (excerpt)

8 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

 2017/8/25 20:34Profile
Gloryandgrace
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 Re:

Brother Blaine: You are making serious assumptions in your interpretation of scripture.
1. That taking the mark is a finality or rather a sin where reconciliation to Christ is impossible. The scripture does not support this, I realize quoting a text and then telling others who do not interpret the way you do seems "biblical" but in this case, it is you that has made the mistake.
The reason I say this is because there are more texts to consider than just this "take the mark and go straight to hell" interpretation.
2. It would be simple to add text to text to validate this claim. I'll use just one to illustrate my point.
Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
This quote from our Lord Jesus can be interpreted just as you have done to the Revelation text. Jesus said if you do not believe that I am he...ye shall die in your sins. There it is...succinct straight forward declaration of doom. But wait? Why are those who have not believed Jesus is "he" that is from above..and many disbelieved many long decades have come to saving knowledge of Christ? Because you cannot link the present state of a man and his final doom without interjecting the saving work of the Spirit of God and the preaching of the gospel. There is nothing in the Revelation text that prevents the entrance of the gospel or the work of the Spirit whereby that man or woman might be saved.
What was absent in Jesus quote in John 8 is also absent in Revelation 16.
What changes everything is the "interim" period where God by his mercy brings grace and kindness to bear upon all sinful men.
3. There is nothing about taking the mark of the beast that has not already been done by those who sold themselves to Satan, or to a Pagan Idol or to Greed or Lust, name your devil; evil men have given their whole life to satisfy their evil hearts by way of Satans ploys.
This ploy does not stand out so great that it overshadows those "liars" or even "cowardly" who will be in the Lake of fire right next to the "mark-takers".
What I am getting at is your desire to show rigid adherence to scripture is taking your interpretations down a side path to erroneous thinking.
Then on top of that taking occasion to accuse John Macarthur for an interpretation that is truly rightly dividing the scripture.
I do not see where you are rightly handling this text, instead, you are assuming an unforgivable sin has been committed where Jesus stated clearly there is only one which is Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
Finally you assume there can be no "interim" period between someone who takes the mark and an offer of God to believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ. In reality, you are saying this Revelation text in Chapt 16 means all the promises of God to save are null and void. Now you not only must defend the idea that you have an eschatological boundary to the promises of God and you must demand there be no interim period where if someone were to find a bible read it and attempt to call upon Jesus to save them he must reject them. You know well that Jesus teaches us..
Joh_6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. In looking further into the texts of scripture the absurdity of denying such an open promise made available until the return of Jesus Christ does not place John Macarthur with a needed correction but you.


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Marvin

 2017/8/25 20:49Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Again I point out that there is a double standard in this forum. There are those who will quickly point out the heretical teachings of Joel Olsteen or Rick Warren or Ken Copelin . But yet will give John MacArthur a free card. Because he is a 5 point Calvinist with letters behind his name and yet holds to Sola Scriptura. It is perfectly alright to allow him to teach heresy?




Brother Blaine,

I want to encourage you to possibly contact "grace to you" and pose your question directly to John MacArthur instead of quesioning him to the point of what you are doing. Also let us have grace towards others and not judge brother or this forum as a whole on any issue. God is our judge and we each are in the place of growing and learning.

We happily have some of John MacArthurs messages on SermonIndex and do believe him to be a godly man of God in this generation. https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=119

Saying that we also do not need to agree with him on every small point of doctrine or ideas to have him on SermonIndex.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2017/8/25 20:55Profile
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 Re:

Amen.


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Todd

 2017/8/25 21:11Profile
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 Re:

I know JM is not popular for nothing, but it really surprises me, that it is just okay to have the mark of the beast after all.

What I know is that their fate had been settled and declared with a clear and exoteric warning. But what quite esoteric is the mark of the beast itself, what is it really, to deserve
such a dreadful condemnation.

 2017/8/26 9:31Profile
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 Re:

Let's not be ridiculous. Nobody here has said it is "ok to get the mark," whatever it may be.


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Todd

 2017/8/26 10:42Profile
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 Re:

Revelation 14:9-11 emphatically states that those who take the mark of the beast/ worship him will suffer the wrath of God and "the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever".

Some of the things Mr. MacArthur has said may be wrong regarding the mark of the beast, as well as some of the things he has said about those who speak in tongues or believe the gifts of the Spirit are for today.

These things are greatly greiving.

I do believe him to be our brother in Christ who is sincerely mistaken on these points, and not a false propet, not a purposeful deceiver of the people of God.

Rather than condemn him, can we please lift up sincere prayers for him that in any way he has been taken unknowingly taken captive to do the will of satan, the eyes of his understanding would be enlightened and he would be set free.


 2017/8/26 12:04Profile
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 Re:

The path of the legends can be tough and bruising. You will be tailed by nasty controversies and maybe forced to tread spots where even the angels may tremble.

 2017/8/26 14:10Profile





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