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ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4502


 Re:

Hello, TiltedHalo...!

I think that was my point in my original two-part post. No man can see God and live. My post concerned the death of Moses. Is it possible that he died as a result of seeing the face of God?

[i]Things to consider[/i]...

1. Moses was old...but had not lost either his strength or eyesight when he died. Remember, he had just climbed a mountain too. Deuteronomy 34:7

2. The Lord buried Moses, and kept the place of burial a secret. Deuteronomy 34:5-6

3. For some unknown reason, Satan and Michael fought over the body of Moses. Jude verse 9

4. It is mentioned twice that Moses knew the Lord "face-to-face." Exodus 33:11; Deuteronomy 34:10-12

5. Moses had requested of the Lord, "Show me your face." God told Moses that no one could see His face and live. He offered instead to show Moses his back. As a result, Moses' face was radiant like the sun.

Is it possible that Moses, who climbed Mount Nebo in order to see the land of promise, could have died by seeing the face of God? It could explain the reason behind Moses' death, as well as the reasoning behind the secret burial of Moses' body and the ensuing struggle thereof. If Moses' face was radiant after seeing the "back parts" of God -- what would he look like if he had seen God face-to-face? Perhaps he was buried in secret (by the Lord) in order to prevent the Hebrews from deifying Moses or treating his body as a "holy" relic.

Regardless, there is no way to know for certain. And of course, I am not trying to build a doctrine from this discussion. I just thought that this is an interesting topic to look into and study.

Even though we are told that no man can see God and live, I still desire and pray to behold the face of God! And I have always thought that this would be a wonderful way to die. The last thing on earth that I would see would also be the first thing in eternity! I sometimes imagine that I will look at the face of God in Heaven -- and an eternity will pass away without ever desiring to look away!

Now I am getting a little "homesick" for eternity.


_________________
Christopher

 2005/7/24 1:12Profile









 Re: Did Moses see God?

Quote:
Exosus 34
29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.



Are you disagreeing here with Paul, who said that Moses' face shone because of the glorious ministration of the law? (2 Corinthians 3:7 - 13)

 2005/7/24 11:11
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4502


 Re:

Hi Dorcas...

Good point! Thanks for the wonderful Scripture references.

You're right in that II Corinthians 3:7 states that the "ministration" was glorious. This pertains to the "ministry," "service," or "giving" of the law of sin and death (or the "law that condemns"). Paul continues by stating that if the "ministration" of such a law that condemns is glorious (enough to make Moses' face shine), "shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?" Why was it glorious? Because of the one who gave it. Verse 17 states that Moses' face "reflected" ("beholding as in glass") the Lord's glory. And remember, Jesus is the Word of God.

But this is a wonderful portion of Scripture to show why a veil was faced over Moses' face. Verse 12 states that the veil was placed to prevent the Israelites from "stedfastly look" or "gaze" at the glow -- rather than the One who caused this glow. Perhaps this is the reason that the Lord buried Moses.

This speaks volumes concerning those who look at what the Lord does (or is "accused" of doing) rather than to the Lord himself. Much of today's Pentecostal and Charasmatic movement points to the "manifestations" (or supposed "manifestations") of the work of Christ -- rather than to Christ alone. Often, we look to and await for the effects of the work of the Spirit rather than to Christ.

Yet through Christ, this spiritual "veil" is removed from our hearts so that we can understand the truth of Christ.

Thanks for pointing out such a wonderful passage! I will be studying this today!


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Christopher

 2005/7/24 13:00Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
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 Re:

This is an excerpt from 'Jesus of Nazareth -who is he?' by Arthur Wallis. References are from the English RV (very similar to the A(merican)SV)

Every Jew knew from the sacred Hebrew Scriptures that man was not permitted to look upon God. “And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for man shall not see me and live.” (Ex. 33:20, ) The New Testament teaching is to the same effect: “No man hath seen God at any time;” (John 1:18a, ), “...dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see...” (1Tim. 6:16, ). In view of this it is necessary to inquire who was the one who appeared to Abram as “The God of glory” (Acts 7:2, )? To Hagar in the wilderness as "the angel of Jehovah", who testified “Thou art a God that seeth. For she said, Have I even here looked after him that seeth me?” (Gen. 16:13, ) To Jacob at Peniel who said “I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” (Gen. 32:30, )? To Moses at the burning bush as "I am" so that he “hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.” (Ex. 3:6, )? To Joshua near Jericho as "captain of the host of Jehovah" so that he “fell on his face to the earth, and did worship” (Josh. 5:14, )? To Gideon under the oak in Ophrah, who is described now as "the angel of Jehovah" and now as “Jehovah” (Judg. 6:14, ) to Manoah and his wife, parents of Samson, who “they fell on their faces to the ground. And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.” (Judg. 13:20,22, )

These incidents of Old Testament history must evoke important questions in the minds of thinking people. It is clear that these godly people were overwhelmed with fear because they were convinced that they had seen God. They testified to their conviction, and Scripture endorses but does not explain their testimony. Some believed that they would die, and were surprised that they lived. Their relief when they were spared did not remove their conviction that they had seen God, nor did it remove their perplexity as to how it was they could see Him and live. If they did not truly see God why does Scripture imply that they did? If they did see God why did they not die according to Exodus 33:20? Why is the one who appeared to Gideon described one moment as the angel of Jehovah, and the next as Jehovah himself? Similarly, why do we find the aged patriarch Jacob equating God, on the one hand with the angel that redeemed him, on the other, when he blessed the sons of Joseph: “And he blessed Joseph, and said, The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God who hath fed me all my life long unto this day, the angel who hath redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.” (Gen. 48:15-16, )? Why did this angel command Moses and Joshua to take their shoes from off their feet? Why did he receive worship, (Josh 5:14) whereas, when the apostle John fell down before the angel to worship him he was told, “See thou do it not: I am a fellow-servant with thee and with thy brethren that hold the testimony of Jesus: worship God...” (Rev. 19:10, )

The person of Jesus who is the Christ provides the only solution to this enigma of the seeming appearances of God in the Old Testament in the person of this mysterious angel of the covenant. He is was who, being “in the beginning with God” (John 1:2, ), shared his glory before the universe existed. (John 17:5) If this angel of Jehovah (or angel of the covenant) was God's Son, then one thing is clear: the manifestation of the Son is presented in the Old Testament Scriptures as a manifestation of God, and explains why in the New Testament Jesus declared “he that hath seen me hath seen the Father” (John 14:9, ). That this angel of Jehovah is also called Jehovah leads us to inquire whether the title Jehovah may not be applied to the Son as well as to the Father; this would account for the numerous passages in the Old Testament which speak of Jehovah, but when quoted in the New Testament are related directly to Christ; this would also explain such a verse as Mal. 3:1; “the Lord, whom ye seek, will suddenly come to his temple” (Mal. 3:1, ) - who could this be but Jehovah? But the prophet continues, "even the angel of the covenant whom ye delight in". (Mal 3:1) We thus concluded that though no mortal eye has gazed or can gaze on God the Father, yet in the person of his Son, who is the very image of his substance, men have truly seen God.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/7/24 13:33Profile
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Are you disagreeing here with Paul, who said that Moses' face shone because of the glorious ministration of the law? (2 Corinthians 3:7 - 13)


Your passage does not say that Moses' face shone 'because of' the glorious ministration of the law. The ministration of the law was 'glorious' but that is not why Moses' face shone. It shone because He had been in the presence of God. The glow on Moses' face was a fitting illustration of the 'passing glory of the law'. In Moses' face too it was from 'glory to glory' but with the 'brightness' decreasing. The glory of the New Covenant is that as we gaze upon the Lord, without a veil, there is a metamophosing into the same image 'from glory to glory'; this time the change is in increasing likeness and increasing glory. 'from glory to glory' with increasing 'brightness'.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/7/24 13:43Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4502


 Re:

Thank you, Philologos! Good stuff!


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Christopher

 2005/7/24 13:47Profile









 Re: Did Moses see God?

Quote:
In Moses' face too it was from 'glory to glory' but with the 'brightness' decreasing. The glory of the New Covenant is that as we gaze upon the Lord, without a veil, there is a metamophosing into the same image 'from glory to glory'; this time the change is in increasing likeness and increasing glory. 'from glory to glory' with increasing 'brightness'.

Thank you for sorting out my logic there. ;-)

In a previous post, I mentioned these verses in Exodus 24:
9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10 [u]And they saw the God of Israel[/u]: and [there was] under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in [his] clearness.
11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also [u]they saw God, and did eat and drink[/u].

Was this another manifestation of the Son?

And, does the reference to 'eat and drink' mean that they ate and drank in His presence, or, simply that they continued to live, despite having seen Him?

Lastly, when God said Moses could not be allowed to see His face, do we have to assume Moses had asked to see [i]the Father's face?[/i]

 2005/7/24 14:06









 Chris

thats a really REALLY good Word you gave!!

Bless God! Thats one of my favorite passages in the Bible also.

Thanks Bro

 2005/7/24 14:15









 Re: Did Moses see God?

About Moses' death. Considering they had set out on an eleven day journey, originally, when he could have expected 40 more years and to enjoy the Promised Land, one has to sympathise somewhat with the way the project turned out for him.

God had already said that men would live to only 120, [i](Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.)[/i] so Moses may have known that his time was near.

Once they were at the viewpoint, and Moses had seen across to the land, I suggest, he found somewhere comfortable to lie down, and fell asleep. Simple as that.

I'm sure he didn't mind not seeing any more of the Promised Land on earth, seeing he now had the prospect of seeing [i]God[/i] for evermore; as you say, the desire of his heart.

 2005/7/24 15:02









 Re:

It has always been my understanding that the "Angel of the Lord" was the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ. This is what others have thought as well:

Leon Wood on Judges 2:1-3; 6:14, 16 says the angel of the LORD "is referred to as the LORD (Yahweh)," and "He uses the first personal pronoun ''I' (vv. 14, 16) in speaking as God to Gideon, and that He finally performs the miracle and disappears thus causing Gideon to recognize Him. There is no question but that this was a true theophany." Moreover, because "this Person uses the first person references while speaking in behalf of God, it is clear that He is God Himself, specifically the Second Person of the Godhead, here in theophany (cf. Gen. 18:1-21; Josh. 5:13-6:5)."

The One who announced to Samson's mother his coming birth was the Second Person of the Godhead in pre-incarnate form (Judges 13:1-23). The angel of the LORD appeared to Manoah and his wife promising them a son (Judges 13:2–23). The passage reaches its climax in verses 19–22. Manoah said to his wife, "We shall surely die, for we have seen God" (v. 22). The angel of the LORD is God.

Malachi 3:1 reads, "'Behold, I am going to send My messenger [or "angel"], and he will clear the way before me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold He is coming,' says the LORD of hosts" (NASB). The Messenger of the Covenant (Angel of the Covenant) will suddenly come to "His temple." The implication is that the Messenger is Yahweh who abode in the temple for whom it existed. Jesus Christ, when he was here on the earth, was ever in the temple. It was His house. His "triumphal" entry into Jerusalem was a conspicuous advent of Yahweh to His temple (Matt. 21:1-17; Mk. 11:35-37; Luke 19:28-48; John 12:12-16; cf. Zech. 9:9). Jesus Christ fulfilled the expectations concerning the Messiah and was none other than the Messenger of Yahweh or Messenger of the Covenant in the Old Testament.

McComiskey says, "Many understand the angel of the LORD as a true theophany. . . as the pre-incarnate Logos. . . . It is best to see the angel as a self-manifestation of Yahweh in a form that would communicate His immanence and direct concern to those to whom He ministered."
A theophany is a manifestation of God in visible and bodily form before the incarnation of Jesus Christ. The theophanies are chiefly appearances of the angel of the LORD, who is clearly distinct from angelic beings. They are actual occurrences, not imaginary, not hallucinatory experiences. They take place in historical settings initiated only by God.

Several scholars have observed "the organic unity of Scripture would be broken if it could be proved that the central point in the Old Testament revelation was a creature angel, while that of the New Testament is the incarnation of the God-Man" (Leupold, p. 501).

Who is this angel of the LORD? The earliest church fathers and most conservative evangelical Bible scholars agree that the angel of the LORD is no one other than Jesus Christ, the Word of God, the second person of the God–head. These theophanies are pre-incarnate appearances of God the Son in human form.

The angel of the LORD appeared only in the Old Testament. Theophanies are unknown in the New Testament after the permanent incarnation of Christ.

Derek Kidner states clearly, "'the Angel of the LORD' . . . leaves no room for doubt that the term denotes God Himself as seen in human form; what should be added is that 'Angel,' by its meaning 'messenger', implies that God, made visible, is at the same time God sent. . . Just as 'the Spirit of God' was and Old Testament expression awaiting its full disclosure at Pentecost, so 'the Angel of the LORD,' as a term for the Lord Himself, becomes meaningful only in the light of 'Him whom the Father . . . sent into the world,' the pre-existent Son" (Genesis, p. 33-34).

John Walvoord unequivocally asserts, "It is the teaching of Scripture that the angel of Jehovah is specifically the Second Person of the Trinity." L. S. Chafer wrote, "the Angel of Jehovah of the Old Testament is the Christ of the New Testament."

Jesus Christ was and is Yahweh, and since He is Yahweh, He preexisted from all eternity. The Angel of the LORD in the Old Testament is clearly the same person identified as the Christ of the New Testament. The Angel of the LORD and Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior is the same person. The image of the Invisible has become flesh and dwelt among us and redeemed us by the atoning sacrifice of Himself.

In the fullness of time, "the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. . . No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him" (John 1:14, 18). When you look into the face of the Lord Jesus Christ, you see the face of God. In Him we have the perfect vision of what God is like. Jesus said, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father."

God bless,

Stever

 2005/7/24 15:44





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