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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Did Adam lose the Holy Spirit?

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 Re: Did Adam lose the Holy Spirit?

Good morning, Stever,

You have explained clearly what you believe. That's ok. I hope it's ok with you, that I don't agree on several points, which is not to suggest I'm 'right'. You've covered quite a lot of scripture, therefore my responses will be as brief as I can, for the sake of clarity.

Way back you quoted from the middle of Paul's explanation of why we are all counted as sinners. (Rom 3:10) He then explains how God has fixed it so believers are counted righteous.

v 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith...'

Unlike you, I don't hold myself apart from this statement, otherwise several other scriptures don't make sense, for instance: I am now 'in Christ' Eph 1:4 - 6. My life is 'hid with Christ in God' Col 3:3. 'That they also may be one [i]in us[/i]' John 17:14 - 21.

The possibility of these statements follow from John 3:5 - 8, 18 - 21... just limiting to a few key thoughts in these verses. The latter section ties in very well with a verse you later quoted from 1 John 1, but did not emphasise, that is v 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Yet to me, this is a key to understanding John's use of the word 'if' in v 9 and 1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And [b]if[/b] any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world. 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, [b]if[/b] we keep his commandments.

contd.

 2005/6/29 7:10









 Re:

George Muller said 'try not to sin' because then there is nothing to be guilty over. I see this, that it removes the ground of condemnation by which we flounder, questioning where we are in our relationship with God.

The way you explain your thinking, it is as if you are reserving all the benefits of salvation (most of which I believe can be enjoyed in some measure [i]now[/i]), until some future time, almost cocooning yourself in a realtime ritual of constant reminders you are really a sinner who needs to repent regularly. Possibly, this is not what meant to convey by your posts. But, possibly, you feel like this because it is true, though. All I can say is, it doesn't need to be true. Or at least, it is possible to hold different thoughts about the problem of sins, which alter the balance of power in favour of [i]not sinning[/i]. I extract the thought that it is possible to 'not sin' from John's writings.

My testimony now is that although I have very serious sins in my past, I no longer feel condemned by them, [i]nor[/i] by the knowledge that I am being perfected in Him. The balance of my thinking is [i]towards Him[/i], His work, His ability to make His work 'work' in me and His presence [i]in me[/i] by the Holy Spirit.

 2005/6/29 7:11









 Re: Did Adam lose the Holy Spirit?

Returning to the matter of judgment, I find myself turning to a number of verses other than you selected, [i]and[/i] reading them differently. For instance, in 3 Cor below, the emphasis that reaches my understanding, is that God is building us into His temple - we are living stones -

1 Peter 2
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an [b]holy[/b] nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

When it comes to the 'gold, silver, precious stones' I don't see them as anything directly to do with [i]our[/i] reward in terms of receiving them. Rather, we become 'gold, silver, precious stones' in His building, which will stand the test of fire.

9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] [u]God's building[/u].
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, [u]I have laid the foundation[/u], and another buildeth there[u]on[/u]. But let every man take heed how he buildeth there[u]upon[/u].
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build [u]upon this foundation[/u] gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 [b]If[/b] any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, [b]he shall receive a reward[/b].

 2005/6/29 7:29









 Re:

Stever,

To the scriptures which you offered on judgment, I would add

Luke 6
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

There are other verses where the reciprocity of God's judgement is measured against our actions.

1 Cor 11
31 For [b]if[/b] we would judge ourselves, [u]we should not be judged[/u].

John 5
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; [i]because[/i] [u]I seek not mine own will[/u], but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Matthew 16
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall [b]reward[/b] [u]every man according to his works[/u].

Luke 23
41 And we [thieves] indeed justly; for we receive the due [u]reward of our deeds[/u]: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

When I studied 'reward' previously, I discovered that God Himself is my exceeding great Reward. Also, that I would be rewarded according to my deeds. That is, as far as I can tell, nothing to do with my sins, which by faith are accounted for by Christ's blood, as you have said.

Presumably, this has something to do with obedience to his will, after one is saved, and of walking in the good works which have been prepared for us, not to mention being sanctified.


 2005/6/29 12:32









 Re:

Dorcas said:
"My testimony now is that although I have very serious sins in my past, I no longer feel condemned by them, nor by the knowledge that I am being perfected in Him. The balance of my thinking is towards Him, His work, His ability to make His work 'work' in me and His presence in me by the Holy Spirit"

Stever's response:
I agree with you 100%. I feel no condemnation from my sins of the past. All sin is considered past sin by Christ, because he died for all sin on calvary-past,all the way to Adam and into the future, to the end of time. All that we have to do is to believe in Him to receive forgiveness for all sin.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/6/29 12:32









 Re: Did Adam lose the Holy Spirit?

Quote:
.. The Christian is judged BY THE WORKS OF CHRIST, and [b]therefore cannot be at the Great White Throne to be judged[/b]. Only the Lost will be in attendance there.


Why not? What about the dead whose names are in the book of life? Why would not they be there with the rest of the dead?

Revelation 20
12 And I saw [u]the dead, small and great, stand before God[/u]; and the books were opened: [b]and[/b] another book was opened, [u]which is the book of life[/u]: and [b]the dead[/b] were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

What about Matthew 25?
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Quote:
The Christian is Judged at the Bema Seat of Rewards (JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST), and will actually be present with Christ at the Great White Throne judging the fallen angels:


I'm not sure the 'Bema Seat' is a totally Christian concept, if it originated at Olympic games (which it did - something to do with being judged on performance - also not a Christian concept).

Lastly, although I see that the angels are being reserved unto judgment, and that we will judge angels, I don't see them in Revelation 20 where the white throne is mentioned.

They are mentioned below, in a similar context.

Matthew 25
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

 2005/6/29 12:33









 Re:

Stever,

..In response to your last post ..

Quote:
I agree with you 100%. I feel no condemnation from my sins of the past. All sin is considered past sin by Christ, because he died for all sin on calvary-past,all the way to Adam and into the future, to the end of time. All that we have to do is to believe in Him to receive forgiveness for all sin.

Then why didn't you say that the first time? :-P

 2005/6/29 12:35





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