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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Did Adam lose the Holy Spirit?

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 Re:

Stever,

Your further response is illuminating. Thank you.

You seem to make no difference in the effect that the Holy Spirit would have had on Adam before he had sinned the first time and the effect that the Holy Spirit has on us who have never [i]not[/i] sinned. Perhaps I have not explained it in these terms till now. I apologise. Do you see more easily what I'm trying to get at?

Therefore, I believe you are extrapolating backwards and attributing God's answer to the problem of sin which [i]we[/i] face [i]after[/i] the Fall, to Adam [i]before[/i] the Fall.

Everything (all the scripture) about our condition and Christ being the second Adam I accept, but remember, Christ was the second Adam in His sinlessness only. Unlike Adam [i]who sinned[/i] SIN itself was [i]attributed[/i] to Christ, that He might bear it away for us. Yes, He was made sin, who knew no sin, but that is the very point of difference. He was limited by His [i]sinless[/i] Flesh, not by 'sin'. This is why in a previous post, I referred to the importance of Christ's sinlessness. It is mostly in this that He is the second Adam.

Adam also, for a while, 'knew no sin', but, he was not the 'only-begotten Son of the Father'. This is another difference, that the 'Word' was made Flesh - completely different from the dust being made flesh. When God breathed into Adam, to make him a living soul, there is room to consider the possibility that He did not also give him His divine nature.

When I said 'I FIND IT REALLY HARD TO BELIEVE HE HAD THE HOLY SPIRIT WHEN HE DID THAT', I am also saying I don't believe he was a 'partaker of the divine nature', when he did that.

Yet, by our reception of the Holy Spirit, [i]we[/i] are made partakers of the divine nature and thus enabled to have victory over sin.

So, to answer your question, yes, I have sinned since I received the Holy Spirit, but, I see a completely different principle at work in my spirit since I was born again and I attribute my sins to my flesh, [i]not[/i] to a sinful [i]nature[/i], now.




 2005/6/27 8:54









 Re:

Dear Dorcas:

The way that I try and understand the problem with our sin, even after being filled with the Holy Spirit, has made me wonder about the original Adam.

God made Adam & Eve from the earth, and made them of flesh and blood, knowing full well that they would fail, miss the mark, and fall. It came as no surprise to God, but he made us anyway.

What a wonderful plan he has created. He also knew beforehand that Satan would fall into sin, and take 1/3 of the Angels with him after he did so.

God uses everything to His glory. This is all part of God's plan, before the beginning.

God knew all along that flesh and blood could not inherit eternal life, but he created us anyway. Why? Because He had a plan for drawing billions to Himself over a period of 6,000 years. How? By offering Jesus Christ, the God Man, as a sin sacrifice for all those that believe on Him- to take away their sin nature. Further, Jesus Christ, the God Man, resurrected from the dead, as a Firstfruits of the resurrection. We will follow him into the resurrection at the rapture, and we will be like HIM. He will be our God and we will be His people.


Dorcas said:
Yet, by our reception of the Holy Spirit, we are made partakers of the divine nature and thus enabled to have victory over sin.

Stever's response:
I do agree, we are made partakers of the divine nature by Christ's death on the Cross and Resurrection from the dead, however, we are still not like Him. We are still mud balls that continue to miss the mark. Granted, we are not overt sinners like we were in the past, before being saved but we have to remember that Christ's righteousness is only "imputed" to us. We are not righteous yet, and will only become so at the rapture. We will continue to sin, by thought and sometimes by deed, until we are placed in the coffin or raptured, whatever comes first.
1 Cor 13:12 tells us:
12. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.


At least, that is the way that I see it.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/6/27 10:02









 Re: Did Adam lose the Holy Spirit? re Stever

Hi Stever,

I'm beginning to see that in most things we are looking at the same 'house' from different viewpoints and I'm not going to persuade you that Adam did not have the Holy Spirit, it appears.

However, what it means for the Church to be the Bride of Christ is something which interests me greatly, because of the emphasis from Paul and John particularly, on all things being gathered into one, in Him.

You said 'however, we are still not like Him' and I would not disagree with you. BUT I would not 'think' in those terms any time it can be avoided. The overwhelming claim of scripture is that we are like Him because we are 'a new creation' which is already 'perfect' and 'when we see Him', we shall 'be like Him'.

It has helped me a lot, to try to see things from God's point of view, because until I did, I carried on being hopeless and feeling helpless about many aspects of my life. Perhaps this is a sign I have a long way to go still to go until I am taking in a full appreciation of my failings!

 2005/6/27 11:49









 Re:

Dorcas said:
You said 'however, we are still not like Him' and I would not disagree with you. BUT I would not 'think' in those terms any time it can be avoided. The overwhelming claim of scripture is that we are like Him because we are 'a new creation' which is already 'perfect' and 'when we see Him', we shall 'be like Him'.

Stever's response:
None of us are righteous, no not one. Only one is righteous, Jesus Christ, the God Man. Christ's righteousness is only imputed to us. The Holy Spirit lives within us, but we still, as long as we are in this flesh, in this blood inherited from Adam, we still have this "sin nature" in us.

If we look at the 10th Commandment clearly, we see that if we never coveted, we would not break the other 9 commandments. Christ, at the Sermon on the Mount, made it very clear that if we ever thought of committing adultery, if we ever looked upon another woman (other than our wives) in lust, that we had committed adultery. That is the problem with us today, in this flesh and blood "tent" that we inhabit. Until we are in the graves we will not stop sinning, by THOUGHT OR DEED. We will only become LIKE HIM- RIGHTEOUS- AT THE RAPTURE. IN THE MEANTIME, CHRIST'S RIGHTEOUSNESS IS ONLY IMPUTED TO US. POSITIONALLY, WE ARE IN CHRIST. AT THE RAPTURE,WE WILL FINALLY BE IN CHRIST, AND LIKE HIM.

ON THIS EARTH, ON OUR CHRISTIAN WALK, WE CONTINUE TO LOOK AT THE GLASS DARKLY, NOT ABLE TO SEE EXACTLY WHAT WE ARE. AT THE RAPTURE, WHEN WE SEE CHRIST FACE TO FACE, WE WILL FINALLY BE LIKE HIM.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/6/27 12:09









 Re:

Stever,

Quote:
Until we are in the graves we will not stop sinning


Are you saying you have no victory over any past sin? You never felt cleansed and holy because of the application of the Blood to your soul?

 2005/6/27 15:37









 Re:

Dorcas said:

Are you saying you have no victory over any past sin? You never felt cleansed and holy because of the application of the Blood to your soul?


Stever's response:

Of course I have felt victory from past sin. In God's eyes I am redeemed. That is only because when He sees me, He sees the Holy Spirit that dwells in my heart. He also sees my heart, and is aware that I believe in Jesus Christ and He knows that I am a Christian. Christ's righteousness is imputed to me.

God's word tells me: 10. "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one" [Romans 3:10]. There is only one righteous man that has ever lived-Jesus Christ the God Man. Since I believe on Him, I am proclaimed righteous by Him, based upon the works that He did.

I am now, the same as you, only positionally righteous. I am not righteous like Christ is righteous. The only purpose for the law was to prove once and for all that it is impossible for mankind to keep the law. The only one that can keep the law is God. It just proves to us how wide the divide is between God and man. The Old Testament believers were not as fortunate as we are---the Holy Spirit could not dwell in them always. He could only dwell in them and on them for limited periods of time until sin was dealt with, until sin was paid for. With that being said, I would still trade my walk with God with the walk of King David, or Abraham, or even Samuel.

I have overcome all sorts of sin. Does that make me righteous when I look at the requirements? God forbid. I am on my knees because of the sin nature that I still have. Our thoughts are just as deadly as the very acts that we used to commit. Are we angry with our brother? Then we are guilty of murder, eventhough we never committed the crime. Matthew 5:22 "22. But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

No, none of us are righteous, not one of us, Christian or non-Christian. We are deemed righteous, because we are Christian and believe God and the Messiah He sent. Not for anything that we have done. The Holy Spirit empowers us to overcome all types of sin, but that is not what saves us. Christ death on the cross and blood sacrifice is what saves us, the same as it saves the believer before the cross who believed God and the Messiah to come.

The Christian believer still sins, eventhough he has the Holy Spirit in his heart, by thought and deed until his dying day. The un-believer sins as well. The difference is, the un-believer is labeled by the sins he continues to commit--by thought and deed---throughout his life. He is judged by his works, while the Christian is judged by Christ's works.The non-believer is labeled as fornicator, adulter, effeminite, etc. etc. etc. because he is judged by his own works. We, as believers are only judged for rewards by Christ at the Bema Judgment seat of rewards. We have already been declared righteous and will not attend the Great White Throne Judgment. Only the lost will be called there.

How do we have relationship with Christ, while we walk this earth? How can two walk together if they do not agree? (Amos 3:3 " 3. Can two walk together, except they be agreed?). For me that walk is accomplished by: 1) admitting that I am a sinner 2) repenting when I sin. My sin can be by thought or deed 3) asking God for forgiveness for my sin 4) continuing my walk with HIM.

That is what it is all about for me. I have witnessed Christians who mistake their position in Christ (redeemed) for their actual state (a work in progress), that will never be in a righteous state based upon their own "works" in their lifetime on this earth. They become puffed up and proud, and the truth is not found in them. Also, they have trouble with worship. Why should they worship God, when they are righteous themselves? I see them at Church. They arrive just in time for the message, and miss the worship, miss the praise. I know them and I know their hearts, because I used to be one of them.

God bless,

Stever




 2005/6/27 23:39









 Re: Did Adam lose the Holy Spirit?

Hi Stever,

Thanks for your answer to my first question. In your reply, you offer me further challenges to expound my comprehension, to which I will return. Pressing for immediate discussion though, is what you said here

Quote:
We, as believers are only judged for rewards by Christ at the Bema Judgment seat of rewards. We have already been declared righteous and will not attend the Great White Throne Judgment. Only the lost will be called there.

which I have seen laid out (not expounded) on a website, but never heard preached.

How can your division of the word be justified by these verses?

Revelation 20
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 2005/6/28 7:48









 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:
Hi Stever,

Thanks for your answer to my first question. In your reply, you offer me further challenges to expound my comprehension, to which I will return. Pressing for immediate discussion though, is what you said here
Quote:
We, as believers are only judged for rewards by Christ at the Bema Judgment seat of rewards. We have already been declared righteous and will not attend the Great White Throne Judgment. Only the lost will be called there.

which I have seen laid out (not expounded) on a website, but never heard preached.

How can your division of the word be justified by these verses?

Revelation 20- with reference to the Great White Throne Judgment.....

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


Stever's response:

I am more than happy to respond:

Judgment seat of Christ.

This passage is directed to the Christian believers in Rome [Romans 14:9-10]

9. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST.

This is directed to the believers at Corinth [2 Corinthians 5:8-10]:

8. We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10. For we (CHRISTIANS) must all appear before the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.


This again is directed to the believers at Corinth [ 1 Corinthians 3:16-15} TELLING US THAT THE CHRISTIAN IS SAVED, EVEN AFTER GOING THROUGH THIS JUDGMENT

6. I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13. Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE.


God's word tells us that the fallen Angels will be judged at the Great White Throne:
Jude 1:6
6. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

2 Peter 2:4
4. For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;



The Bible tells us that at the Great White Throne Judgment Christ opens the Books- one Book is the Book of Life. The other Book is the Book of the Law. Each man is weighed in the balance. Each one has either been trying to earn his way to heaven by his own works, or has totally rejected God. The Law, the standard of Holiness is weighed against each man & woman and fallen Angel. The Christian will not be so judged, as the Christian is judged by the Work of Jesus Christ:

11. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS.
13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS.
14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The Christian is NOT judged according to his own works. The Christian is judged BY THE WORKS OF CHRIST, and therefore cannot be at the Great White Throne to be judged. Only the Lost will be in attendance there. The Christian is Judged at the Bema Seat of Rewards (JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST), and will actually be present with Christ at the Great White Throne judging the fallen angels:

1 Cor 6:2-3- Paul, writing to the Christian Church at Corinth had this to say:

2. Do ye not know that the SAINTS SHALL JUDGE THE WORLD? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3. Know ye not that WE SHALL JUDGE ANGELS? how much more things that pertain to this life?


God bless,

Stever


 2005/6/28 11:36









 Re:

Dorcas said:

Are you saying you have no victory over any past sin? You never felt cleansed and holy because of the application of the Blood to your soul?

Stever's continued response:

1 John 1:7-10: This is John's letter to the Churches:
7. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10. IF WE SAY THAT WE HAVE NOT SINNED, WE MAKE HIM A LIAR, AND HIS WORD IS NOT IN US.

This is a good one to think about. We are deemed righteous, because we are Christian and believe God and the Messiah He sent. Not for anything that we have done. The Holy Spirit empowers us to overcome all types of sin, but that is not what saves us. Christ death on the cross and blood sacrifice is what saves us, the same as it saves the believer before the cross who believed God and the Messiah to come.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/6/28 17:08









 Re:

The Judgment Seat of Christ (Continued):

This again is directed to the believers at Corinth [ 1 Corinthians 3:16-15} TELLING US THAT THE CHRISTIAN IS SAVED, EVEN AFTER GOING THROUGH THIS JUDGMENT

6. I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13. Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE.


What is happening in the above Judgment seat of Christ, the Judgment seat of rewards? As beleivers, we are all commanded to be about Christ's business- to Witness to the Lost, to feed the poor, to love our brothers, etc. etc. etc.

At the Judgment seat of Christ (the Refiners Fire) all of our "works" mentioned above (to Witness to the Lost, to feed the poor, to love our brothers, etc. etc. etc.) will be placed into the Refiners Fire of Jesus Christ. All of the "works" that we have performed on His behalf will be examined. Any of our works that were performed to earn a better place in heaven or to earn praise from men will be burned before our eyes like wood, hay and stubble. Anything that we have done (works) for God's glory (not our own) will be burned through the same fire and provide the Christian believer with rewards of Gold, Silver and Precious Stones.


God bless,

Stever

 2005/6/28 17:17





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