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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Did Adam lose the Holy Spirit?

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 Re: Did Adam lose the Holy Spirit?

Quote:
I must admit that I think that there was conviction of the Spirit of God when Adam sinned.



Would he have been [i]able[/i] to sin, if he had been full of the Holy Spirit?

 2005/6/18 16:31
preacher_ish
Member



Joined: 2005/6/9
Posts: 22
Atmore, AL

 Re:

Do we?

preacher_ish


_________________
Brother Dennis

 2005/6/18 18:31Profile
ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Some other thoughts

Quote:

InTheLight wrote:
Adam was pure and innocent in the sense that he had no legal guilt. As long as he was obedient to God he would remain innocent. God put him in the garden so that his innocence might be transformed into moral character by a series of choices. It was to be a development from the natural to the spiritual.

Just taking this thought of Rons a bit further.

I know this does'nt really answer your question, but these scriptures may help us understand their state before the fall. This is a intresting passage to look at :
And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree [b]of the knowledge of good and evil,[/b] for when you [b]eat of it[/b] you will surely die."
Genesis 2:16,17 NIV By implication it seems that before they ate of the tree, they never had the knowledge of good and evil. In eating of it...
the LORD God said, "[b]The man has now become like one of us,[/b] knowing good and evil. Gen 3:22 NIV
Having the knowledge of good and evil seems to have been something that was exclusively Gods condition. The word knowledge in the Hebrew is Yada' and one of its meanings is:
to know
to perceive, to perceive and see, find out and discern, to discriminate, distinguish, to know by experience, to recognise, admit, acknowledge, confess, to consider.

In mans original state he was not able to do these particular things, and if you look at the list these are attributes that you would normal associate them with being adult. It is only children who seem to have the ability to be...
naked, and they felt no shame. Gen 2:25 NIV
The word for life in Hebrew is chay with its root meaning:
to live
to have life, to continue in life, remain alive, to sustain life, to live on or upon, to live (prosperously)


I am suggesting that Adam did not have the Holy Spirit in him, but he did live in a state of sinless perfection, he lived in life with its keystone being the fact that they did not have the knowledge of good and evil. In my understanding of the bible Adam lived in a childlike state of innocence not knowing the difference between good and evil as children do. It is this state of being that most laws of any land use as a standard in passing judgement, if the person is a minor then the sentence is lighter. You can teach a child good and right behaviour, but do the know as in Yada' know? I don't think so. The major difference between children however and Adams prefall existence is that children have a sinfull bent that makes them do acts that do not bring life. Just ask parents the world over.

All Adam new before the fall was life, he lived in a state of perpetual life. His actions were governed by the source of his being, he brought life to whatever he was doing. I do not think he even had a conscience.

He communed with God as they walked in the garden. This however changed when he ate the fruit and the rest of mans toil on this earth has been well documented.


_________________
Zeke Oosthuis

 2005/6/18 22:56Profile









 Re: Some other thoughts

ZekeO,

Good thinking and expounding!

Quote:
InTheLight said:
God put him in the garden so that his innocence might be transformed into moral character by a series of choices. [b]It was to be a development from the natural to the spiritual[/b].



Were not the natural and the spiritual perfectly balanced in Adam, already?

 2005/6/19 10:15









 Re:

Zekeo...very good.

I just resently saw the 'first sin from Man' as 'Ignorance was bliss'. And you kinda helped me understand it better, Being a CHILD!!! Oh how are we called to have a CHILD LIKE FAITH!! back to the principles!! i love it!!

 2005/6/20 2:15
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Oswald Chambers comments:
It is only when God has altered our disposition and we have entered into the experience of sanctification that the fight begins. The warfare is not against sin; we can never fight against sin: Jesus Christ deals with sin in Redemption. The conflict is along the line of turning our natural life into a spiritual life, and this is never done easily, nor does God intend it to be done easily. It is done only by a series of moral choices. God does not make us holy in the sense of character; He makes us holy in the sense of innocence, and we have to turn that innocence into holy character by a series of moral choices. These choices are continually in antagonism to the entrenchments of our natural life, the things which erect themselves as ramparts against the knowledge of God. We can either go back and make ourselves of no account in the Kingdom of God, or we can determinedly demolish these things and let Jesus bring another son to glory.
Chambers, Oswald, My Utmost for His Highest, c1927. Sept 8th

some other scattered comments;
The pure man or woman, not the innocent, is the safeguarded man or woman. God demands that they be pure and virtuous. Innocence is the characteristic of a child, it is a blameworthy thing for a man or woman not to be reconciled to the fact of sin.
Chambers, Oswald, Run Today’s Race, c1968.

There is a difference between innocence and purity. Innocence is the characteristic of a child, purity is the characteristic of a man or woman who knows what the tendencies and temptations to go wrong are, and who has overcome them. Virtue is not in the man who has not been tempted, neither is purity. When a man is tempted and remains steadfastly unspotted, then he is virtuous.
Chambers, Oswald, The Place of Help, c1935.

“Yet thou saidst, I am innocent.” The innocence arising from evil is always like that—“I’ve done nothing.” It is the innocence we are all born with; sooner or later it takes its stand with evil and only knows good by contrast; whereas the innocence arising from the presence of the Spirit of God takes its stand with good and knows evil only by contrast. If we hand our hearts over to God we need never know in experience that what Jesus Christ says of the human heart is true (see Mark 7:20-23).
Chambers, Oswald, Notes on Jeremiah, c1936.



Bringing Sons to Glory is a good Chambers book to read on this topic.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/20 10:18Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Some other thoughts

ZekeO writes:

Quote:
I am suggesting that Adam did not have the Holy Spirit in him, but he did live in a state of sinless perfection, he lived in life with its keystone being the fact that they did not have the knowledge of good and evil. In my understanding of the bible Adam lived in a childlike state of innocence not knowing the difference between good and evil as children do. It is this state of being that most laws of any land use as a standard in passing judgement, if the person is a minor then the sentence is lighter. You can teach a child good and right behaviour, but do the know as in Yada' know? I don't think so. The major difference between children however and Adams prefall existence is that children have a sinfull bent that makes them do acts that do not bring life. Just ask parents the world over.

Sounds good to me. :-)


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/20 10:21Profile









 Re:

The Bible tells us that man consists of body, soul & spirit. The body is the flesh, the “tent” as Paul called it. The Soul consists of the ego, the will, the emotions, the psyche & the mind. The Spirit consists of the “divine nature” and is somehow associated and a part of the heart. (when we are saved we receive a new heart and a new spirit)

In the Garden God told Adam that if he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good & evil that he would surely die. (Gen 2:17). We all know that Adam and Eve did not physically die for a very, very long time after eating the apple. So, what was God referring to? It was Spiritual death, and it was immediate. The Spirit that Adam & Eve once had, that allowed them communion with God, was severed and they were driven from the Garden.

So, the first Adam lost the Spirit, and all others after him have been born without it as well, lost and unregenerate.

The Bible tells us that God will provide us with a new heart and a new Spirit: 1) Ezekiel 18:30-31 “Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31. Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Ezekiel 36:25-28 “25. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be My people, and I will be your God.”

Christ tells us that we must worship God in Spirit and truth:
John 4:23-24 “23. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”

So Christ, the second Adam, by His death, blood and resurrection has created a way to supernaturally create a new heart & a new spirit in all those that believe on Him. At the same time He has provided a way for His laws to be written in our hearts, as well as giving each believer a comforter, the Holy Spirit (part of the Godhead) to live in our hearts.


Aren’t we the luckiest people that have ever been given breath?

God bless,

Stever

 2005/6/21 2:10









 Re: Did Adam lose the Holy Spirit? re Stever

Hi Stever,

I hope you will think through carefully, some of the objections I raise to your thesis, below.

Quote:
It was Spiritual death, and it was immediate. The Spirit that Adam & Eve once had, that allowed them communion with God, was severed and they were driven from the Garden.

... So, the first Adam lost the Spirit, and all others after him have been born without it as well, lost and unregenerate.



I have heard this said before, but I don't agree, for the very reason that receiving the Holy Spirit (which I believe is the Spirit to which you refer with a capital 'S') brings into residence in the mind and body, the laws of God which pertain to eternal life, this time, [i][b]like His[/b][/i].

Adam would have had the knowledge of good and evil which is implicit in a knowledge of 'the law', if he had had the Holy Spirit.

Quote:
At the same time He has provided a way for His laws to be written in our hearts, as well as giving each believer a comforter, the Holy Spirit (part of the Godhead) to live in our hearts.



Yes, but... I believe the spiritual death to which your refer was the death of the human spirit of Adam, which was what had given [i][b]eternal[/b][/i] life to the dust from which he was formed. Spiritual death was the loss of an [i]eternity[/i] with God.

Yes, at new birth a person is given a new spirit (small 's'), to give 'life' to his body and soul, [i][b]and[/b][/i] the Holy Spirit, to deal with the need for victory over sin. They are both necessary for salvation to 'work' and be workable.

It is this dynamic combination which will carry a person through the rest of earthly life, and, into and through eternity, even though the physical properities of our bodies (the dust into which God breathed in the garden of Eden, which we inherited as descendants of Adam) will be changed through death and the resurrection of the body therafter.

 2005/6/21 6:45
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

I think an assumption is being made that 'immortality' is the same as 'eternal life'. Certainly Adam would not have died but then neither would any of the animals or the trees; did they have 'eternal life' too?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/21 6:48Profile





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