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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : Has America Passed the Point of No Return?

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proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

RE :///... Josephus and the others must have missed that.///

Josephus and others only recorded what those of that generation believed applied to them and they flee'd the destruction of Jerusalem because of what was spoken and the destruction happened almost exactly 40 years of it being spoken.

vs 34 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Most commentaries that I am aware of are in agreement with this concerning verse 34 :

Wesley's Notes for Matthew 24:34

24:34 This generation of men now living shall not pass till all these things be done - The expression implies, that great part of that generation would be passed away, but not the whole. Just so it was. For the city and temple were destroyed thirty - nine or forty years after.


clarity

 2017/7/6 19:14Profile









 Re:

•••Josephus and the others must have missed that.•••

Was Josephus even a believer?

Bro Blaine

 2017/7/6 20:05
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

//David Wilkerson and Art Katz//

True they were prophetic voices but not national voices. Joel Osteen and TD Jakes and Joseph Prince are the only national voice we have, which is enough to gag the proverbial maggot.

When John the Baptist came people rushed out to see him and believe me he did not preach a message for itchy ears.

Because of the huge population of the US I am not sure, practically speaking, how a true prophet would get any air time. Even if he did it is not clear at all if the church would want to hear the message.


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Todd

 2017/7/6 20:54Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re:

Resurrection day and the coming of the Messiah always associated together and coinciding in the Jewish mind. All roads leading to the Day of the Lord in the message of the prophets. Now we know the coming of this Messiah will be the second coming of Christ at the Day of the Lord - resurrection day.

No resurrection no all things were fulfilled in 70 AD.


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David Winter

 2017/7/6 22:37Profile









 Re:

There is a lot I could write about this topic.Just some brief thoughts:
We are first of all "strangers and pilgrims" and should "seek first the kingdom of God" A "nationalistic faith" can be dangerous.

When Jesus talked about "tribulation" he never mentioned it would be a 7 year period. Someone else made this up, and now we keep going round in circles

Here is an important passage that I quickly want to share:
Luke 21v25 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory

"nations will be in anguish and perplexity..." the word "perplexity" only appears 1x in the NT and it is a very strong word.
meaning: (lit., "at a loss for a way," a, negative, poros, "a way, resource"), of the distress of nations, finding no solution to their embarrassments; papyri illustrations are in the sense of being at one's wit's end, at a loss how to proceed, without resources.
(edited: from Vine's Expository Dictionary)

That's where the world is heading to according to the Bible. This should make us tremble. Going round in circles and discussing some fabricated ideas all the time is not helpful.

May the Lord be close to us and give us all the strength and wisdom we need in this difficult time ahead.

 2017/7/7 2:08
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re:

The idea of a final time of trouble lasting approx seven years is not something that someone made up or is fabricated. The words of Christ regarding a final great tribulation have to be compared also with Daniel's prophecies (Dan 9:24-27 etc.) and much of what is found in Revelation. A strong case can be made for a final time of trouble falling within a final seven years. I think what has been fabricated is the view that there will be no final time of trouble and that Jesus spoken in non literal terms in Matt 24:21. If He spoke in literal terms of His second coming a few verses later why would He have spoken in non literal terms of the time leading up to His return.

I appreciate your admonitions though and your comments on the perplexity to come. I still wonder if America has a revival does that perhaps inadvertently carry with it the idea that this revival would somehow save us from this coming time of perpexity among the nations. I think not.

Thank you.


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David Winter

 2017/7/7 6:53Profile









 Re:

Perhaps the thread should be retitled Has the Church in America Reached the Point of No Return. Peter reminds us that judgment does begin with the household of God.

Bro Blaine

 2017/7/7 7:32
AbideinHim
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Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 5185
Louisiana

 Re:

"Perhaps the thread should be retitled Has the Church in America Reached the Point of No Return. Peter reminds us that judgment does begin with the household of God."

I agree with you Brother Blaine. I sent out this post so that the saints would see that without fervent prayer, repentance, and intercession it is too late for America. However, we don't give up, we continue to pray, intercede, and stand in the gap knowing that the Lord is merciful, longsuffering, and not willing that any would perish, but that all would come to true repentance and the knowledge of the truth.

However, the sons of thunder immediately come out of the wood works wanted to call fire down from heaven and burn up this ungodly nation.

True intercessors have the heart of God and are grieved by the condition of the Church in America, crying out for mercy.

Judgment does indeed begin in the House of God, and some of the biggest critics ought to be allowing the Lord to tenderize their hearts. Praise God that He had mercy on us, and by the grace of God we are saved, but in our flesh there dwells no good thing, and there is much in us that the Lord is wanting to deal with that is not like Him.

Lord, have mercy on us! The Apostle Paul saw himself as the chief of sinners. We must repent of our pride and judgmentalism.


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Mike

 2017/7/7 9:12Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

RE : /// I think what has been fabricated is the view that there will be no final time of trouble and that Jesus spoken in non literal terms in Matt 24:21....////

Whom said anything about Matt 24:21 not being Literal ?

The Christians of that generation understood that it literally applied to them and because of that understanding they fled the destruction of Jerusalem.

So the question has to be asked If we believe the end of verse 21 that says : "nor ever shall be" is literal or not ?

If we believe in a dual fulfillment as I believe is possible and as many people teach, what do we do than with : "nor ever shall be"

The commentaries that I checked are in agreement that verse 21 was speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers :

(21) Such as was not since the beginning . . .--The words come from Daniel 12:1. One who reads the narrative of Josephus will hardly hesitate to adopt his language, "that all miseries that had been known from the beginning of the world fell short" of those of the siege of the Holy City (Wars, v. 13, 4, 5). Other sieges may have witnessed, before and since, scenes of physical wretchedness equally appalling, but nothing that history records offers anything parallel to the alternations of fanatic hope and frenzied despair that attended the breaking up of the faith and polity of Israel.

Pulpit Commentary :

Verse 21. - Nor then. Jesus gives the reason why this precipitate flight (vers. 16-20) was rendered necessary at the moment spoken of in ver. 15. Great tribulation. The miseries suffered in the siege of Jerusalem were stupendous To the skilful and fierce attacks of the Romans from without were added from within dire famine and pestilence, dissensions, violence, and continual bloodshed and murder. Josephus estimates the number of those who fell in the siege and capture of Jerusalem at 1,000,000, the usual population being largely increased by the influx of pilgrims attending the Feast of the Passover, and by thousands of fugitives who had flocked in from the country (Josephus. 'Bell. Jud.,' 6:09, 3). He adds that 97,000 were carried away captive during and after the war. Such as was not...nor ever shall be (Daniel 12:1). This is not mere hyperbole, but sober fact. Josephus ('Bell. Jud.,' Prom. 4) himself bears similar testimony: "Of all the cities under the dominion of Rome, ours was once the most happy, and afterwards the most utterly miserable. For the misfortunes of all the nations upon earth that have ever happened, if they are compared with the calamities to which the Jews were exposed, will, in my opinion, fall far short." Chrysostom sums up the matter thus: "Whence came there thus upon them wrath from God intolerable, and more sore than all that had befallen aforetime, not in Judaea only, but in any part of the world? Is it not quite clear that it was for the deed of the cross and for this rejection? Mark, I pray thee, the exceeding greatness of the ills, when not only compared with the time before, they appear more grievous, but also with all the time to come. For not in all the world, neither in all time that is past, and that is to come, shall any one be able to say such ills have been. And very naturally; for neither had any man perpetrated, not of these that ever have been, nor those to come hereafter, a deed so wicked and horrible" ('Hom.,' in loc.). The "affliction" spoken of refers not only to bodily sufferings, but to that anguish of mind occasioned by acute apprehension and. expectation of danger, such as was felt in the days before the Flood, and at the time of the oppression of Antiochus Epiphanes.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible :

For then shall be great tribulation,.... This is urged as a reason for their speedy flight; since the calamity that would come upon those who should remain in the city, what through the sword, famine, pestilence, murders, robberies, &c. would
be such as was not since the beginning of the world, to this time, no, nor ever shall be. The burning of Sodom and Gomorrha, the bondage of the children of Israel in Egypt, their captivity in Babylon, and all their distresses and afflictions in the times of the Maccabees, are nothing to be compared with the calamities which befell the Jews in the siege and destruction of Jerusalem. Great desolations have been made in the besieging and at the taking of many famous cities, as Troy, Babylon, Carthage, &c. but none of them are to be mentioned with the deplorable case of this city. Whoever reads Josephus's account will be fully convinced of this; and readily join with him, who was an eyewitness of it, when he says (m), that
"never did any city suffer such things, nor was there ever any generation that more abounded in malice or wickedness.''
And indeed, all this came upon them for their impenitence and infidelity, and for their rejection and murdering of the Son of God; for as never any before, or since, committed the sin they did, or ever will, so there never did, or will, the same calamity befall a nation, as did them.

Matthew Henry Commentary

24:4-28 The disciples had asked concerning the times, When these things should be? Christ gave them no answer to that; but they had also asked, What shall be the sign? This question he answers fully. The prophecy first respects events near at hand, the destruction of Jerusalem, the end of the Jewish church and state, the calling of the Gentiles, and the setting up of Christ's kingdom in the world; but it also looks to the general judgment; and toward the close, points more particularly to the latter. What Christ here said to his disciples, tended more to promote caution than to satisfy their curiosity; more to prepare them for the events that should happen, than to give a distinct idea of the events. This is that good understanding of the times which all should covet, thence to infer what Israel ought to do. Our Saviour cautions his disciples to stand on their guard against false teachers. And he foretells wars and great commotions among nations. From the time that the Jews rejected Christ, and he left their house desolate, the sword never departed from them.

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges

21. great tribulation] “Jerusalem, a city that had been liable to so many miseries during the siege, that had it enjoyed as much happiness from its first foundation, it would certainly have been the envy of the world.” Josephus, B. J. vii. 6. 5.
No words can describe the unequalled horrors of this siege. It was the Passover season, and Jews from all parts were crowded within the walls. Three factions, at desperate feud with each other, were posted on the heights of Sion and on the Temple Mount. These only united to fling themselves at intervals upon the Roman entrenchments, and then resumed their hate. The Temple-courts swam with the blood of civil discord, which was literally mingled with the blood of the sacrifices. Jewish prisoners were crucified by hundreds in view of their friends, while within the city the wretched inhabitants were reduced by famine to the most loathsome of food and to deeds of unspeakable cruelty. Jerusalem was taken on the 10th August, a. d. 70. 1,100,000 Jews perished in the siege, 100,000 were sold into slavery. With the fall of Jerusalem Israel ceased to exist as a nation.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
CHAPTER 24
Mt 24:1-51. Christ's Prophecy of the Destruction of Jerusalem, and Warnings Suggested by It to Prepare for His Second Coming. ( = Mr 13:1-37; Lu 21:5-36).

clarity

 2017/7/7 10:21Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1953


 Re:

To me the Churches in America have passed beyond the point of return. They are institutional in nature and are government by board instead of God. They seek to please people and change their stand based on the culture.

Only hope we have in America is to find local churches that are true representation of the body of Christ and to join them. If you cannot find them in your locality the pray that God should lead you to brothers of similar burden to form one.

I am part of a local church in my locality that I believe is seeking to be a true representation of the Body of Christ. Being a true local Church is not easy. One has to pay a price for it. I do not believe even the so called posters here in SI are willing to pay the price. How do we expect a nominal Christian to repent and pay the price to be part of a local body of Christ?


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Sreeram

 2017/7/7 10:51Profile





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