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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Romans 1:5

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ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Romans 1:5

Came across the scripture today and I would like to get some thoughts from you all:
5through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about [b]the obedience of faith[/b] among all the Gentiles for His name's sake, Rom 1:5 NASB

By whom we have received grace and apostleship, [b]for obedience to the faith[/b] among all nations, for his name: Rom 1:5 KJV

Through him we received both the generous gift of his life and the urgent task of passing it on to others who receive it by [b]entering into obedient trust in Jesus.[/b] Rom 1:5 The Message

It is through Him that we have received grace (God's unmerited favor) and [our] apostleship to [b]promote obedience to the faith[/b] and make disciples for His name's sake among all the nations, Rom 1:5 Amplified Bible

through whom we did receive grace and apostleship, [b]for obedience of faith[/b] among all the nations, in behalf of his name Rom 1:5 YLT

Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles [b]to the obedience that comes from faith[/b]. Rom 1:5 NIV

From the readings of all the above scriptures, do we obey Gods commands by faith?
If it is by faith, faith in what?

Can we conclude that if someone does not obey the teachings of scripture, they have little faith?

Gill says the following:[b]For obedience to the faith -[/b] That by this office, which I have received from God, and the power by which it is accompanied, [b]I might proclaim the faith, the Gospel of Jesus;[/b] and show all nations the necessity of believing in it, in order to their salvation.

If we pull this down into the state of the modern church generally, Could we get to the simple formula of little obedience=little faith?

But from the readings of scripture does it not seem that we obey buy faith, or should I rather say we submit our earthly way of living and thinking by faith and is so doing we obey.

Does anyone have any angles?


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2005/6/16 13:01Profile









 Re: Romans 1:5

An angle

The word 'obedience' directs me towards considering 'faith' to be a discipline. This would be consistent with Rom 3:27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by [u]the law of faith[/u].

 2005/6/16 17:17
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Romans 1:5

Quote:
Rom. 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:


How about
"through whom we have received grace and apostleship to faith's obedience among the nations'? Are we talking about the "nations' obedience of faith" or the "apostle's obedience of faith"? Is this saying that as a result of God's gifting in grace and apostleship Paul had been enabled to 'trust and obey'?

"thou shalt love the Lord thy God..." was a command but grace makes every command a delight and the phrase becomes a promise rather than a threat. Hebrew's speaks of the 'obedience of faith'. I think obedience is just a particular aspect of faith.

“So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.”
(Heb. 3:19, KJVS) says they did not enter in because of 'unbelief' - apistia (no faith) while in the ASV the latter reference is “Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, that no man fall after the same example of disobedience.” (Heb. 4:11, ASV) The KJV has 'unbelief' here too, but the word is different to Heb 3:19. In Heb 4:11 the word is apeitheia which means 'disobedience'.

Using ZekeO's formula 'disobedience = unbelief'. and 'little obedience' = 'little faith'. When our children were small my wife would often say to them...
'slow obedience is disobedience'
'partial obedience is disobedience'

according to her lights 'little obedience = no faith'!
A wise lady my wife; I mean, look at the husband she chose! ;-)


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/17 4:45Profile
ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 So what your saying is...

Quote:

philologos wrote:
A wise lady my wife; I mean, look at the husband she chose!

So are you saying that before you were married you were'nt smart but through her smartness she made you smart or she married you for your brains as evidence of her smartness? This seems like a chicken and the egg syndrome. :-?


_________________
Zeke Oosthuis

 2005/6/18 15:15Profile
ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
"through whom we have received grace and apostleship to faith's obedience among the nations'? Are we talking about the "nations' obedience of faith" or the "apostle's obedience of faith"? Is this saying that as a result of God's gifting in grace and apostleship Paul had been enabled to 'trust and obey'?

I think in the context of the scriptures it is the nations obedience that he is referring to.

Quote:
I think obedience is just a particular aspect of faith.

Well, so you have faith so you obey or because you obey you have faith. In my mind the implications of those two positions takes us down two seprate roads.
Quote:

“So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.”
(Heb. 3:19, KJVS) says they did not enter in because of 'unbelief' - apistia (no faith)

Dragging this back in NT church life, could the problems in the present church be attributed to the fact that people have little faith?

This brings another question, what are we supposed to have faith in or what are they suposed to obey, and what for?

Quote:
The KJV has 'unbelief' here too, but the word is different to Heb 3:19. In Heb 4:11 the word is apeitheia which means 'disobedience'.

So are they tieing the two together as one thought, in other words faith and obedience are the same thing.


_________________
Zeke Oosthuis

 2005/6/18 15:36Profile









 Re:

Romans 1 (Today's English Version)
5 Through him God gave me the privilege of being an apostle for the sake of Christ, in order to lead people of all nations to believe and obey.

Romans 1 (Young's Literal Translation)
5 through whom we did receive grace and apostleship, for obedience of faith among all the nations, in behalf of his name;

Quote:
philologos said:
I think obedience is just a particular aspect of faith.


Could there be two parts to this.

Firstly, there is the call to believe the gospel. This would lead to 'obedience' to 'belief' or 'faith', (that in our turning away from sin, to God, He will save us; we will be born again).

Secondly, there is the challenge to be obedient to what He calls us to do and be, after we are saved. I think both are included. Paul wants to see the nations turn to Christ for salvation and continue to follow Him.

I believe the 'obedience to faith' causes us to turn away from 'unbelief' and 'disobedience' whenever they tempt us.

 2005/6/18 16:21
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: So what your saying is...

Quote:
So are you saying that before you were married you were'nt smart but through her smartness she made you smart or she married you for your brains as evidence of her smartness?

You're not a professional theologian are you? ;-) No, I'm not saying anything about 'my' smartness but simple commending my wife's good sense and judgment. :-D Neither did she choose me to prove a point... I always suspected she married me for my money. We've been together for 40 years now, and she is still looking for it! :-D


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/19 13:45Profile
ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
You're not a professional theologian are you?

No, but I put the blame squarely at your feet, see what you've done to me. 8-)


_________________
Zeke Oosthuis

 2005/6/19 15:48Profile
ravin
Member



Joined: 2004/5/6
Posts: 309
Washington st. u.S. A.

 Re:

That's a good'n!

"We've been together for 40 years now, and she is still looking for it!" 8-)


Heaven is a great place to hide your gems and things of value.

 2005/6/19 20:31Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

what about the parable Jesus' spake of 2 sons, one said I will and didn't the other said I wont and later did, which of these 2 did the will of thier father? I believe many saints who have lost thier joy and victiory can quickly recover it by going back and doing the last thing they knew to do and didn't or if they did it half way to re-do and make a full completion of it. I supose grace and understanding would be equally as important here as faith and obedience.


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D.Miller

 2005/6/20 0:17Profile





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