SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Looking for free sermon messages?
Sermon Podcast | Audio | Video

Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : Christ’s Return in the Clouds by Zac Poonen

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 )
PosterThread
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1368


 Re:

Hi again

This is the Timeline issue I am talking about

NORMALITY(eating,building drinking etc)
THE GREAT TRIBULATION(worst time in human history,not normaility)
COMING OF THE SON OF MAN

Versus

NORMALITY(marying,sowing etc)
COMING OF THE SON OF MAN
THE GREAT TRIBULAtION(worst time in human history,not normaility)

The Noah and Lot examples are clear that it is the second option.Whether the "coming of the son of man" involves a rapture or not ....
urs staff

 2017/6/18 6:44Profile
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1878


 Re:

Good morning staff,

Thank you for your comments. If Jesus Himself said His coming would be "after the tribulation" of those days (Matt 24:29-31) then there is no timeline problem whatsoever to a post trib appearing of Christ. He Himself said it.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days there will be a stellar darkness (24:29). THEN (24:30) the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the heavens and all the tribes of the earth shall see Him COMING on the clouds with power and great glory! AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days.

The trumpet of Matt 24:31 is the last trumpet mentioned anywhere. There are no other trumpets after this very last one and Paul let us know that at the last trumpet (I Cor 15:52) is when we will all be changed and put on immortality ( I Cor 15:50-52). A "last trumpet" that sounds seven or three and a half years before this cannot intelligently be called the last trumpet if another trumpet (Matt 24:29) is to be blown several years later. It's clear and rather simple basic eschatlogy 101 purposefully made clear to us by the Lord.

If the trumpet of I Thess 4:16 is when the saints all will be changed then it can't be the last trumpet because several years later another trumpet (24:31) is still to sound AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days. To say the trumpet of I Thess 4:16 is the last trumpet when it is still to be followed by another trumpet is where problem in timelines occur. I would urge you to look at Matthew 24:29-31 more carefully.The first four words of verse 29 establishes the timeline for all that follows. There can't be a last trumpet at a pre-trib rapture when all saints living and dead are to be changed if it is yo be followed by another last trumpet which is indeed the very LAST trumpet Jesus referred to (Matt 24:31).



Thank you.


_________________
David Winter

 2017/6/18 8:44Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

RE : /// The days of normalcy will end when the tribulation comes ///

Both verse 37 as well as verse 44 seem to me to teach an imminent return that falls on a world still filled with normalcy and is not expecting it, and not on a entire World that just experienced the worst Tribulation in history :

The Phrase Thief in the night would also seem me to indicate an : imminent return that falls on a world still filled with normalcy and is not expecting it, and not on a entire World that just experienced the worst Tribulation in history



 2017/6/18 9:49Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1368


 Re:

Hi Docs
I respectfully complain that you have ignored completely what i have said and just carried on with a post tribulation view regardless of what i was saying .
Their is no problem with the Post tribulation of Christ agreed totally by me but their has to be also a pre appearance of Christ...
Let me put it another way
The only timeline that fits Matthew 24 is this
1:A Time of Noah and Lot ,Noah building his boat and Lot surviving in the evil city with all its carry on.People eating drinking builiding etc =Normality
2:The Son of Man Comes
3:Tribulation occurs on the whole Earth,A time like no other=No Normality
4:End of Tribulation immediately Darkness and the coming of Christ again.

Otherwise the examples of Noah and Lot are void and incorrect .The Judgement only comes when Noah and Lot were made safe by a supernatural event caused directly by God .I think everyone has to agree on that.
urs staff

 2017/6/18 10:30Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1368


 Re:

Hi Proud Papa,
Maybe I have not put my point across well but the point is a very simple point which u touched on.
If the only appearance of Christ is a immediately after the Great Tribulation then it cant be a surprize,it cant be a coming after normality ,it cant be a thief in the night,their cant be normality just prior to Christs Return.
For instance I knew plenty of people non Christians before the year 2000 who thought or had a foreboding that we were near the end.They were wrong of course but after going through the Great Tribulation and seeing the skys go dark etc everyone would not be surprized by the end coming.In fact how could u be eating and drinking and making merry if sky was darkening ....
urs staff

 2017/6/18 10:39Profile









 Re: Christ’s Return in the Clouds by Zac Poonen

I've seen how many Christians are having argument and division about Pre-Trib and Post-Trib. It is just a waste of energy to "debate" what you think about this and that?

The most important thing now and everyday is to be Christlike and to look forward and be prepared to Jesus Christ Second Coming...

Debating and Disagreement will not change what is God's timeline for this earth...

 2017/6/18 13:46
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1878


 Re:

I didn't ignore your point. I stated that things were normal in the days of Noah until he entered the ark. Things were normal until the day Noah entered the ark, and they did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Those rescued on the ark did not escape the flood by being taken completely away. They were provided a place of safety during it. A time of normalcy before the final tribulation does not mean Jesus is going to make a special second coming before the second coming to cat h the church away. That is not what "as in the days of Noah" etc. means.

The pre-trib timeline is the one that doesn't work if the last trumpet is really the last trumpet. If all believers dead and living are translated at a pre-trib rapture it would have to be at the last trumpet (I Cor 15:50-52). Yet the very last trumpet is seen at the second coming (Matt 24:31). Pre-trib has a timeline of a last trumpet several years before another last trumpet.

Thank you for your comments and replies.


_________________
David Winter

 2017/6/18 14:46Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1368


 Re:

Hi Docs
yes we are both agreed that it is "normal" until Noah entered the flood and "normal" until Lot was taken out of Sodom.
We are both agreeing I assume that things are "Normal" just before the tribulation.
We are both saying that both Lot and Noah are "kept safe"


I think it is fair then to say that whatever Godly people are around are going to be "kept safe" during the tribulation
I think its fair to say that the tribulation will not happen until those Godly people are brought to a "safe place"

We differ on what "kept safe" means
I think it is a supernatural event as with Noah and Lot possibly the rapture and you say it is not a second coming.

On that Jesus said the coming of the Son of Man will be like Noah and Lot which means that Jesus will come to bring a Judgement when the "Godly are safe" and cannot come until then.
May I add also that Jesus delibrately went out of his way to bring a witness(sort to speak) of two scriptures that are the same so that their can be no denying that the "Godly will be taken out or if you like kept safe"
The two events are supernatural "Angels in one" and "God "closes the door of the Ark "in another.

I dont debate about the Trumpet and you may be right.I really feel I dont know enough about the trumpets to bring anything insightful or new to the table .
All I think is fair to say is that there is a supernatural event prior to the Great Tribulation and Jesus definitely comes back after the The Great Tribulation
thanks for ur commennts urs staff

 2017/6/18 15:23Profile





©2002-2019 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy