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It didn't click how God would condemn those w/ no chance to repent, how is that even fair?

It was revealed to me that if they haven't had the chance, then they are saved by grace.
If they had the chance then REFUSED...
that is when they are condemned.

This statement is held alot within the Christian body. But to me it lies in contradiction to these verses.

Romans 10:14-21

14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"

16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"

17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;

19 But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says,

20 And Isaiah is very bold and says,


Vs. 14 is the main key point. How can they? If they haven't heard, in other words they CANT. So they don't go. (to heaven).

I'm glad all your questions were answered.

 2005/6/16 15:51

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Hope springs...


Thanks for sharing some of your background. Much more could be said stemming from this comment here on 'particular condemnation' and would likely have a different take on the whole thing... But short on time at the moment.

Just hope that you get an opportunity to dive in and explore the site, it's vast and immense and full of wonders and giant hearts ... it still boggles the mind all that goes on through here.

If you haven't yet, check out [url=]Ten Shekels and a Shirt[/url]

God will fill that hunger in your heart brother.

Mike Balog

 2005/6/16 15:57Profile

Joined: 2005/6/15
Posts: 8


It is easy for you to say such things, when you already are going to heaven. They cannot be held accountable for that which they had no knowledge of. It is unjust.

Yes CRSSCHK, I have heard of Ten Shekels and a Shirt... It was by Paris Reidhead. I used to have a copy Of Revival Hymn, along with and extensive collection of Leonard Ravenhill. So I know all you might say...

All I am saying is that how can we say such things? How can we gloat? Is God a god that condones such arrogance? To say "You never had the chance, so you can't come up here, VIP's ONLY!!!"

 2005/6/16 19:44Profile

Joined: 2004/8/3
Posts: 633


They cannot be held accountable for that which they had no knowledge of. It is unjust.

Hi ddp. This is my first ride on this thread. I hear people say things like this all the time. In fact, I used to think this way, as well. Until...I obtained the fear of the Lord. If God is God, and we are his creation, then we had no say so in being born, correct? If he is our creator, can he not do whatever he wishes with his creation and it will be "just"? This is my take, God defines himself. He defines righteousness and justice. Any man who will say that God is not just is way off the track. You ask if there is anyone who will question God. Try listening to this:
This is Art Katz' testimony. One of the main messages behind all of Katz' talks is how we need to "know God as he, in fact, is". This is what I have been about for the last year. Learning who God really is and how he thinks. I'm finding that my biggest problem has been having created God in my image. Now that I am allowing God to define himself to me and accepting him for who he is, I'm much more, shall we say, stable.

I have a friend who says he is an atheist. He gets really angry when he talks about God. I told him, "you're not an atheist. You believe there's a god, you just don't like who you think he is." And sometimes, neither do I. Love, Dian.

 2005/6/16 20:42Profile

Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2734
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: I need hope

I don't want the same old "Job story bull..."

It's interesting that you would mention this book right off the bat. I wonder if you could explain more fully what exactly you mean by the statement above.

Ironically I believe Job could be of tremendous help to you. Before you write me off, please listen for a moment. There is something in Job that points us to the importance of what God [i]is[/i] and not what God [i]does[/i]. God's actions can be confusing while the Lord Himself never is. Job refused to be loyal to the creeds his friends desperately clung to, when it denied his experience and his knowledge of who God is.

Have you sought to know who God is as earnestly as you have sought to know what He does?

Just some thoughts. I don't think it's wrong to ask hard questions, in fact I am glad to see you seeking Truth. I pray you will find Him.

In Christ,


Ron Halverson

 2005/6/16 21:31Profile


the importance of what God is and not what God does

For a different thread I was thinking about this very point. It is something like the difference between being able to recognise a voice you know (without being able to distinguish what it is saying) and reading the words (without necessarily knowing exactly what they mean).

If you recognise the voice of the Lord as consoling and safe, you can follow Him easily, even if He is leading you along a very narrow ledge, where it's important - now His words really begin to matter; you also have to hear them and do exactly what He says - to put your feet exactly where He tells you to. As you find He is trustworthy, the more effort you put into complying with His guidance and the less you worry about the consequences of trusting His excellent judgment.

 2005/6/16 23:26

 beloved DDP

Right as I type this post, I'm praying that God just impart a Knowledge to you that defies the word of man.

I'm 45, and I got saved 3 years ago, and sometimes I lament that it took this long for me to come to the Wonderful Saviour, Who loves you and I with a gentle and humble heart. Why did it take me so long? Why did I spend years, decades, sinning, smoking cigs, grass, ruining my body, having sex with any ole girl who would give me the time of day, using them for my depraved and selfish lusts. Oh conviction just pours over me, like tar, and I feel stained, and LAMENT for ALL those unprofitable years.

Years I could have been serving the Kingdom of God, leading His lost sheep to Him.

You're 19!! The whole world stretches out before you, and God is calling you. You know He is, you feel it. He has given you a glorious burden for His lost sheep among the Hindu's and the Muslims.

You're 19!! and Jesus is filling your precious heart, and Jesus is calling you. I'm getting so excited and so jazzed in the Spirit for you.

Jesus wants to co-labour with you in the mission field, you know it. This post is confirmation, In Jesus Name.

I thank God that you wrote this forum.

Listen to me, religion kills, and religion kills absolutely.

It's the Blood we have to get under, and the Cross we are to bear, and Jesus we ask INTO our hearts. Thats it, right there.

God will tell us what to say and do.

This weekend I asked God, please give me a deeper revelation of my beloved Jesus, and here are two of the four bits of Holy Scripture that He laid on me:

Come to me, all you are are weary and burdened and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
Matthew 11:28-30

"learn from me"....."gentle and humble in heart"....oh Lord, may You tattoo this Scripture on our hearts!!

here's the other Scripture:

People were also bringing babies to Jesus to have Him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. But Jesus called the children to Him and said, '[i][color=FF3300]Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these. I tell you the truth, [/color][/i][b][color=FF3300]anyone who will not receive the Kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."[/color][/b]
Luke 18:15-17

a child's faith is a gift of God, it's supernatural, it's imparted, and Thank God, it's unshakable.

My praise and my prayer is that, at 19, God give you such a gift, FOR HIS GLORY.

In Jesus' Name.

I love you, Neil

 2005/6/16 23:45

Joined: 2004/5/6
Posts: 309
Washington st. u.S. A.

 Re: I need hope

"I have some serious questions about God and christianity. I know here someone can state their case. I am questioning whether God truly exists.

I don't want the same old "Job story bullshit"
I know the Bible..."

yes know the devil also knows the word and uses it against Christs own, he tryed to use it on Jesus, but Jesus answered," As it is written." Gods word is our defence, it is a sword to use in battle, get to know your sword well. put on the whole armour of God daily.
pray for his understanding, its in the word Luke 24:32 and verse 45
He will answer your prayer and give you peace of heart. I am praying for you even now and lifting you up to the father of us all.

 2005/6/17 1:27Profile

Joined: 2005/4/26
Posts: 376
Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania

 Re: I need hope

Dear DDP,

In your post you spoke of whether God wants someone to confront/question him like Jacob or David. I'm not sure what situations you are speaking of that would make you ask that.

Not long ago I saw a short video that included a story of a Muslim cleric that came to the Lord after having a dream. He risked his life confessing Jesus to his fellow Muslims. He apparently became a Christian without every hearing the Word preached. The question you asked about the billions of souls being lost has always puzzled me also, but according to scripture we are not all judged the same. The Word says teachers are judged more severely. We must trust God and know he is rightous and fair.

You ask, "How reliable is the bible?" Unless we can read Greek and Hebrew, and on top of that find complete original text, we are stuck with translations to our English language.

What amazes me is how all these translated books fit together like a puzzle, whether it is dirrect prophecies or figurative prophecies. The direct prophecies written hundreds of years before Jesus was born that tell of Jesus on the cross {Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22} make me wonder how anyone who ever read them could not believe that the bible is the Word of God. The figurative prophecies are sometimes more amazing to me, especially the ones having to do with the blood.

Your post says you need hope. If you in fact were saved a few years ago, God must have bore witness to you that the Word is true. Maybe you had experiences in your past that can't be put off as coincidences. You must look back to those experiences just as David did the lion and the bear experiences he had. Look back to the memorial of twelve stones on the bank of the Jordan and know these things are so.

DDP, their is an angry and rebellious tone to your post. I'm not sure you would hear the "power of God" in any response, even if it were to be written by Jesus, unless you talk to the Lord yourself and get things right with him. That is where you will get your hope.

In Christ,

Gary Eckenroth

 2005/6/17 3:14Profile

Joined: 2003/7/21
Posts: 268


Hey DDP, (wow, popular guy...)
Sorry you didn't find my earlier post helpful. I'm a simple person. Trying to be more so, actually.
Anyhow, another quote caught my attention. And another person's, but I wanted to put in my two cents, too, I suppose.
You were speaking to YeshuaIsGd when you wrote:

It is easy for you to say such things, when you already are going to heaven. They cannot be held accountable for that which they had no knowledge of. It is unjust.

This is something my husband struggles with, actually, and I sometimes have trouble with, until I remember this...
I went to hear a missionary speak at a college ministry group I used to frequent. This was well over a year now, so the details fuzz for me, and I've had to up her name and where she went. Her name is Marilyn Laszlo, and she was in Paupa New Guinea for a good number of years, living with the natives, learning to speak their language and creating a written language for them, and eventually translating the Bible into their language for them.
Getting vocabulary was a difficult process. In the beginning, she'd point to things, and for a long time they kept giving her the word for "finger". When she wanted to learn the word for "jump", she started jumping up and down and asked for the word, and they originally gave her "idiot", because apparently that what they thought she looked like.
Long story short, there came time where she had to learn what their word for "sin" was, and they gave her some big long word that, literally translated, came out to be something like "dirty-awful-bad-wrong-sad". She then asked them what they considered to be sin.
They named off the last six commandments. (All the commandments minus the ones explicitly having to do with God.)
Take from that what you will, but what I get from it is that those unreached by the Gospel are not forgotten by God.
Everyone knows the difference between right and wrong. We don't need the Gospel for that. Those who go to Hell deserve it, and I restate, according to Isaiah 64:6 and the oh-so-familiar Romans 3:23, all of us deserve it. God is just. Justice is not revenge, not spite, not sadism. Justice is rewarding and punishing for actions in the way that is fair. God will not send anyone to Hell who does not deserve it.

Mary M.

 2005/6/17 21:34Profile

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