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Discussion Forum : General Topics : David Hogan Conference Video from May, 2005

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ReceivedText
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Joined: 2005/4/22
Posts: 257
Seattle, Washington, USA

 David Hogan Conference Video from May, 2005

Hey,

Thought you all would enjoy this video of David Hogan's meeting in my neck of the woods. For those of you who aren't familiar with Hogan, he has seen over three hundred people raised from the dead under his ministry.

I trust your faith will be challenged by this video. Here's part 1:

[url=http://www.believeonjesus.com/video/video1.asp?ID=dh1]http://www.believeonjesus.com/video/video1.asp?ID=dh1[/url]

RT

 2005/6/15 19:28Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re: David Hogan Conference Video from May, 2005

Hi there, Received...

Just a note, but several years ago, I attended a series of meetings with David Hogan. However, I was not impressed. In fact, I was deeply saddened by what I witnessed and experienced through his ministry. I don't say this to serve as a naysayer, but to perhaps serve as a balance concerning some of his incredible claims.

First of all, the services were filled with alot of boasting about his ministry, as well as the hardships that he has faced in ministry. Its good to boast in difficulties in order to proclaim God's grace through such circumstances. However, there are many people that sometimes boast in their supposed "hardships" (which are usually "inconveniences" more than hardships) as a means of boasting of their "pious" righteousness. This was the feeling that seemed conveyed by David Hogan. I have seen persecuted pastors in Mexico who have lived in chicken coups -- yet they praised God for his wonderful blessings. Yet Mr. Hogan spoke often about how [u]great[/u] his ministry was, rather than in his weaknesses (as Paul the Apostle did).

Most of the many claims that Mr. Hogan made concerning his ministry were not only outrageous, but many of them were unbiblical. For instance, he told the congregation about a "12-foot tall owl" that spoke to him. He also made claims about the devil chasing him (he even said that the devil opened and closed a church gate while following Mr. Hogan -- who was shouting to the village, "The Devil is coming! The Devil is coming!"). He spoke of people (including himself) flying through the air -- being thrown by both God and the devil against walls.

The problem with his "testimonies" is that most of his claims are unsubstantiated. The claims of raising "200-300 people from the dead" and "multitudes of miracles" are quite interesting. Yet my closest missionary friends and many pastors from that area of Mexico dispute those claims. They have told me that his claims are not just exaggerated -- but that they are simply untrue.

The services that I attended were filled with great theatrics. From his bandana and boots that he wore during the several services -- to the group of big men who traveled with him -- the services were filled with drama. His messages were filled with outrageous stories mingled with heavy doses of the prosperity "name it/claim it" message. Indeed, he took a total of three offerings one evening, and two offerings every other evening. Much of what he said was [i]obviously[/i] unscriptural, but he preached with a great deal of "authority" -- constantly stating that he was a "man of God" and that you must listen to him. He even "prophesied" during one of his messages, stating that there were people in the congregation who were "...'questioning my man of God...but you will be sorry for doubting my annointed one. Vengence is mine,' saith the Lord." This is in great contrast to the Word, which states that "all men are liars" and that we must "test everything."

David Hogan told the congregation that many visible miracles were going to be seen each evening, including gold fillings, gold dust and stretched legs. Mr. Hogan even announced that [u]everyone[/u] was going to be filled with the Holy Spirit every night, and everyone who did not "fight God" would be "slain in the spirit." In fact, he lined the [u]entire[/u] church up, and told the congregation that if they "did not fall," that they were in fact "fighting God." Needless to say, most people fell. However, it was the first time in my life that I have ever been "pushed" by a preacher. David Hogan said loudly through the microphone, "The fire of God is all over this young man," and then pushed my head very forcefully, while two men (one behind me on each side) pulled my shoulders backward. I got up, went back to my seat and began praying.

David Hogan went on preaching about how he talks to God, sometimes even sounding like he actually gives God orders. He told the Lord how he tells him how he is going to do something, and that if the Lord didn't empower him, that he would stop preaching. Most of the doctrine that he preached that night wasn't really doctrine at all -- just teaching based on his own claims. This is very dangerous, because it is the root of nearly every cult. The Word of God should be the final authority on every experience and every doctrine.

I left the service that evening feeling quite disturbed by all that I witnessed. My hurt ached for the congregation. There were many people who seemed more than willing to believe anything and everything that he said. I wondered why people didn't "test everything" as we are admonished in 1st Thessalonians 5.

I later learned that there were several people who actually went to the pastor and voiced their concerns about David Hogan. At first, the Pastor was going to actually tell those people to leave the church. But eventually, enough of the congregation voiced their concern that he changed his mind. The elders of the Church eventually raised the issue, and the pastor never asked Mr. Hogan to come back. Needless to say, it made for quite a "soap opera" in that particular congregation.

I debated even writing this, because I didn't want anyone to get the wrong impression. I know that God can do even incredibly MORE than anyone's claims. And I don't know, nor do I question, the motivations of men who preach false doctrine or inflated testimonies. There are so many preachers out there preaching so many different things -- and often, these preacher's contradict one another. It is important that we use discernment from the Word of God when evaluating the doctrine that men preach. However, it seems that more and mroe people are accepting whatever a "preacher" says -- without testing it by the authority of God's Word.

I hope this didn't come across like it was motivated by anything other than concern. This is just my experience with David Hogan. I am still praying for him -- because I believe that God can set any path straight.


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Christopher

 2005/6/16 1:17Profile
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Online!
 Re:

Thank you brother Chris for stating these things honestly with a pure heart. I am very catious with this man and personally have discerned not to put his recordings up onto the website. I would ask that no more links to his materials be referenced to in the forums.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2005/6/16 1:49Profile
ravin
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Joined: 2004/5/6
Posts: 309
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 Re:

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote;
There were many people who seemed more than willing to believe anything and everything that he said. I wondered why people didn't "test everything" as we are admonished in 1st Thessalonians 5.

I believe to many are chasing the feelings they are hoping to get or have felt before, some are looking for healing and greater things that God has promised in his word.
God is God and his word will come to pass in his time and place.
The Bible is not a book of spells that we use to move God into doing anything. God I believe has given us his word to move into him, as Paul of old I would that I could know him more.
Psalm 118:8 " It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
the word says in; Ephesians 5:6 " Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience."


So let us walk in the light, even as he is in the light.

 2005/6/16 3:02Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Quote:

ravin wrote:
[b]The Bible is not a book of spells that we use to move God into doing anything.

the word says in; Ephesians 5:6 " Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience."

So let us walk in the light, even as he is in the light.

[/b]
I agree, Ravin. I have heard so many preachers saying lately, "If God doesn't move -- then I move God!" To me, that is a really dangerous thing to say.

Yes, God is moved by compassion, but that is not the intent that many of these preachers are trying to convey. They seem to be conveying that they can actually [i]coerce[/i] God in to acting against his will.

I know of a preacher who forces the congregation to [i]dance[/i] if he doesn't "feel the presence of the Lord" in the building. So he admonishes the congregation to "keep dancing" -- regardless of their motivation. And this is not uncommon. I have heard stories of preachers in many churches that do the same (or similar) things in order to "draw" the Spirit of God to move on their behalf.

However, to me, this is very similar to the prophets of Baal cutting themselves in order to get their god to move (I Kings 18). Elijah did not resort to their same tactics. In fact, he just sort of lingered around, waiting for the theatrical display of the prophets of Baal to finish. God was teaching Elijah that He doesn't always come in earthquakes, thunder, wind, and fire. And God also showed Elijah that He never moves because we tried to force Him to. "Elijah prayed..." Elijah was reminding God that he remembered God's Word and promises.

Many of today's contemporary worship services often resemble a [i]rain dance[/i] -- thinking that God will move on behalf of our dancing (or dimmed lights, or seriousness, or forced jovial attitude, etc...). May we get back to the point where we realize that God moves because He WANTS to -- not because He is forced to!


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Christopher

 2005/6/16 18:01Profile
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Joined: 2003/10/29
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College Station, TX

 Re:

Cccchhhrriiisss,

Did I spell that right?

Brother, I always appreciate your insight here and other places. Thank you for sharing your heart here, praise God that He chooses to reveal His wisdom through us by His grace alone.

Let us press on my brother in the faith!


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Ryan Couch

 2005/6/16 18:15Profile
Nellie
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Joined: 2004/4/5
Posts: 952


 Re: Amen, Brother

God Bless
Nellie :-)

 2005/6/22 18:52Profile
ReceivedText
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Joined: 2005/4/22
Posts: 257
Seattle, Washington, USA

 Re:

Quote:
First of all, the services were filled with alot of boasting about his ministry, as well as the hardships that he has faced in ministry. Its good to boast in difficulties in order to proclaim God's grace through such circumstances. However, there are many people that sometimes boast in their supposed "hardships" (which are usually "inconveniences" more than hardships) as a means of boasting of their "pious" righteousness.



I'm sorry you felt this about Bro. Hogan. Though I think you misunderstand where he is coming from. I think his goal is to provide a wake up call to a lazy, fat, selfish church. I have heard numerous sermons by Hogan and have found them to be edifying and challenging.

Quote:
Most of the many claims that Mr. Hogan made concerning his ministry were not only outrageous, but many of them were unbiblical. For instance, he told the congregation about a "12-foot tall owl" that spoke to him. He also made claims about the devil chasing him (he even said that the devil opened and closed a church gate while following Mr. Hogan -- who was shouting to the village, "The Devil is coming! The Devil is coming!"). He spoke of people (including himself) flying through the air -- being thrown by both God and the devil against walls.



Now I have never heard about any 12 ft. owl. But the rest of the claims you list tell me that you may be unfamiliar with demonic activity outside of this country. It would be interesting to hear you try to describe your experiences after spending a year in Haiti or some place like that. Having traveled quite a bit as a missionary evangelist, there are things that happen that don't fit your theology, BUT THEY HAPPEN! I have no problem with any of Hogan's stories that I have personally heard. But not saying that you DIDN'T hear somthing off the wall. I wasn't there. But you will understand if I can't base my perception of Bro. Hogan on your experience of him. Vice versa.

Quote:
The problem with his "testimonies" is that most of his claims are unsubstantiated. The claims of raising "200-300 people from the dead" and "multitudes of miracles" are quite interesting. Yet my closest missionary friends and many pastors from that area of Mexico dispute those claims.



Were they there? Or were they jealous of his success? Not at all trying to in any way to discredit your friends. I just don't know. But I do know that I have friends who have been used quite powerfully in the power gifts in Africa and most of their opposition came from their own denominational missionaries, not from the devil.

If you doubt that God can use us to raise thousands from the dead, you have a different concept of God than I do.

BTW, if you haven't seen a demon possessed little woman handle several burly men like twigs, keep living. We must have God's power. The devil has real power. But of course he's a loser.

Quote:
The services that I attended were filled with great theatrics. From his bandana and boots that he wore during the several services -- to the group of big men who traveled with him



The bandana and boots are his way of being himself. (He doesn't like to wear ties) The big men were probably his boys. He likes to take his family with him.

Quote:
David Hogan went on preaching about how he talks to God, sometimes even sounding like he actually gives God orders.



This is probably your false assumption (again I wasn't there). It is just hard for me to believe that he actually would mean this since his whole ministry is based upon the fact that Jesus is King and devils must bow. I've only heard him exalt Jesus.

Quote:
He told the Lord how he tells him how he is going to do something, and that if the Lord didn't empower him, that he would stop preaching.



What would be the point of preaching in your own strength? Help me here.

Quote:
Most of the doctrine that he preached that night wasn't really doctrine at all -- just teaching based on his own claims. This is very dangerous, because it is the root of nearly every cult.



I don't think he goes to local churches to preach doctrine. That is the job of the local church eldership. He goes to provoke them to love and good works. And he does a great job of it. We should be wary of travelling preachers unconnected with the local church who try to teach doctrine. This can cause division. I think Hogan has a pretty good handle on church government and how he runs things in Mexico.

Quote:
The Word of God should be the final authority on every experience and every doctrine.



Amen. Greater things shall we do. Remember, it was Peter's idea to walk on water. He didn't have any Scripture for it. He just asked and he did it. How big is your God? Surely this didn't defy the Scriptures. What purpose did it serve? Did anyone get delivered by Peter walking on the water? Did anyone get saved? Nope. But it happened.

Quote:
I left the service that evening feeling quite disturbed by all that I witnessed. My hurt ached for the congregation. There were many people who seemed more than willing to believe anything and everything that he said. I wondered why people didn't "test everything" as we are admonished in 1st Thessalonians 5.



Hmmm....So what false doctrine did he teach? I don't recall you mentioning one. Sounds like he just told a bunch of stories.

Maybe you could be a little clearer on what exactly bothered you that was forbidden by Scripture.

RT

 2005/6/22 20:11Profile
ravin
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Joined: 2004/5/6
Posts: 309
Washington st. u.S. A.

 Re:

We must put our faith in god not man, but God uses man as his spokesman.
I believe in God and the Healing that I've received.

 2005/6/23 0:23Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

I apologize if you misunderstood my intent, ReceivedText.

Having sat through several of David Hogan's "messages," I came to the conclusion that I mentioned in my earlier post. Each night, the services were all held the same way. First, he "claimed" his "authority as a man of God." Next, he told people about the things that happen at all of his services "to people who don't doubt or fight against the Holy Spirit." Then he told the congregation remarkable tales of his "experiences" in Mexico.

His messages were filled with "the devil is a bad and scary dude." In fact, he stressed the devil -- to the point of fear (such as the 12-foot owl story, in which the owl talked to him). He spoke of the devil chasing him (even opening and closing gates, and moving swings on swingsets, etc...). Of course, this is contrary to the Word -- where we are admonished by Christ, "[i]And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell[/i]" (Matthew 10:28).

David Hogan then preached about "prosperity." This was not the true Biblical definition of prosperity. Rather, it was the American Christian TV version. David Hogan boldly took up several offerings (up to three in an evening). There was very little Scripture in his messages. In fact, his messages were very short, because he wanted to make time to have prayer lines.

David would call for the entire church to be prayed for. Before he began, he would actually tell the congregation that "those who don't fall under the power of God are actually FIGHTING AGAINST THE HOLY GHOST. God wants to slay everyone in this place. So don't fight it! Stop using the Holy Ghost as a punching bag!" Before praying for people, he told them that some were going to shake, some were going to jump and dance, some were going to get "drunk in the Holy Ghost" and be filled with "holy laughter." He said that he "wouldn't be surprised" if a few people got "glued to the floor or wall for a day or two." However, there was no mention of repentance, or a deeper walk with Christ, or a deeper hunger for knowing Christ intimately. It was all about the physical "manifestations."

As I said before, this was the first time that I have ever been purposely and physically pushed down by a preacher. David Hogan pushed, his other helpers pulled on my shoulders. I had always heard stories about people who have experienced being pushed down by a preacher. The entire time, he was telling the congregation (through the microphone) that, "the fire of God is all over this young man!" He also spoke very highly of me through the microphone, telling me that I had a "high call of God" on my life, and that I was going to "shake nations!." He kept yelling, "Fire" and "Fuego" before pushing my head.

His messages and theatrics did not "move me" at all, except to tears. But my tears were a result of seeing people accept without question the unscriptural things that he claimed. They were tears for the very sincere people who want so badly to "see God move" -- that they are willing to accept things without searching the Scriptures or prayer.

That night, I also wept for Brother David. I don't know his heart. I don't know why he said the things that he did. I suppose that many pentecostal and charasmatic ministers feel a "need" to tell stories of the supernatural in order to be successful. In fact, I have a missionary-evangelist friend who confessed to me that he was caught up in the same kind of thing. This dear brother would exaggerate his stories -- making them more colorful and exciting by adding a few things to his real experiences. He said that he did this because he wanted to "move the people", and to perhaps add some "spiritual legitimacy" to his ministry. He said that the Lord eventually rebuked him for LYING. He felt it was as if the Lord were telling him, "I can do MORE than you ever exaggerate!"

Of course, I don't know if this is the case with David Hogan. I do know that I have checked into his claims of raising people from the dead. The Mexican pastors and missionary friends that I know are all wonderful men with passionate hearts for Jesus (and I might add, not at all jealous of anything that the Lord is doing). They are from places where David Hogan supposedly claims to have some of his experiences. One pastor told me, "As religious as the people of Mexico are -- if one single person was truly raised from the dead -- there would already be a shrine there, and the national news media would be covering it!"

I believe in miracles. In fact, I could post many, many pages telling about incredible miracles that I have witnessed or that God has done in my life -- both here and while working with several missionaries and pastors in Mexico. I have seen some marvelous things -- things which may even be difficult to believe. But for every miracle that I have witnessed or experienced, I have still "proved" it through the Word of God.

The Bible talks about "false signs" and "lying wonders." And it even talks about multitudes of the "elect" that could be led astray by them. While I rejoice in everything that the Lord does, the Bible is clear that as spiritual beings, we must "judge all things" (I Corinthians 2:15). While we could never judge the heart or intentions of a person -- we can judge whether that person's actions or words are aligned with the Word of Truth. Again, Paul exhorts us to "test everything" (I Thessalonians 5:21).

Is such a "test" a sign of a "lack of faith" in a believer? Not at all! To the contrary, by testing all that you see and hear -- you are demonstrating faith in God (and God alone). Because of so many contradictory messages and doctrines, and because of the many false preachers and teachers who "minister" today, Paul's exhortation has never been so timely.

On Christian television, there are at least twelve men and women that I am aware of that have claimed to have physically, spiritually or mentally been "caught up" into Heaven. They tell tales of what they have seen. One particular preacher even claims to have been led around by a reddish-blond "Jesus" who took him to his mansion -- to discover Gucci furniture. He even said that it still had it Gucci tags. The point of his story was that, in Heaven, God will reward you with the things that you "refused to be blessed with" while on earth. It was, of course, an "experience" to verify the prosperity message that this particular preacher teaches week after week.

Another man, Richard Eby, claimed to have died and visited Heaven, seeing many wonderful things. He also says that the Lord allowed him to go to Hell for 2 and a half minutes (because he could never be in his "right mind" if he experience more than that). His story was told many times on TBN. He was a frequent guest preacher of many of the charasmatic mega-churches throughout the United States. Richard Eby claims that the Lord spoke to him verbally and told him that he "would not die again" before the Lord comes back. As the years went on and he continued to age, many of his listeners started getting ready. But Richard Eby died a few years ago. Because of our longing to be with Jesus, these stories are "inspiring." But it doesn't change the fact that this claim about not dying was obviously false.

Can a person really be caught up into Heaven? Definitely! Paul describes "a man" who was caught up into Glory. However, Paul states, "[i]How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter[/i]" (2 Corinthians 12:4). This doesn't sound like today's boasts of Heavenly visits. Are many of today's stories true? Of course not! The Bible says, "[i]Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him[/i]" (I Corinthians 2:9).

A "real" miracle will always line up with the Word of God. I'm not saying that every miracle will be a duplicate of those recorded in the Bible. But real miracles in today's age will [u]not contradict[/u] with the heart of God as found in the Scriptures. Real miracles and moves of God do not allow men to steal the glory that belongs to Christ. Unfortunately though, it seems that many of today's "miracles" are often inflated stories meant to touch our emotions.

Like I said before, I debated replying to your post in the first place. I didn't want to seem harsh in my post concerning David Hogan. I know that God can and does more than we ever give Him credit. The things that I have witnessed remind me that His awesome power is at work in us and through us -- to serve as a reminder of his great love for us. Perhaps I could share some of my experiences one day. And I could never judge the heart, intentions or motivation of Mr. Hogan. Only the Lord knows the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Right now, however, it is getting quite late (or really, quite early). I have an exam in the morning, and I didn't plan on writing such a long post. I hope this clarifies my previous post a little. Have a wonderful night of peaceful rest!

:-)
-Chris
Matthew 5:8


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Christopher

 2005/6/23 2:56Profile





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