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ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re: Ons werk sommer maar lekker saam, ne

Quote:

aeryck wrote:
...it is about examining a workable system that allows people to argue effectively.


Don't take things personally. Nothing to spiritual about that. Thats my system. I do have a weakness in that I tend to give people gears, tune (I'm not quite sure what english word to use) when they do have big opinions. Sometimes the wise thing is to just let the person have their rant and let them leave. It is amazing that sometimes it is as if some folk try to bait others into a cyber squirmish, but generally if you give respect you will get it back.

It is quite difficult as we are dealing with people who are talking about their belief which undergirds their lifestyle. Imagine someone saying to you, everything you know is wrong, and telling you like you have to believe it...clash of wills is what you get.

I am thinking of the Pharisees in their working of religion. They 'loved' God and related to God by what they believed in the scriptures. They had searched the scriptures deligently hoping that by it they would find eternal life and missed the life himself. His application of scripture was not based upon what he had read, but on knowing he who had written the scripture.

Please forgive me for going a little off topic, as I was writing about my thoughts on this workable system of discussion. ;-)


_________________
Zeke Oosthuis

 2005/6/16 14:39Profile
aeryck
Member



Joined: 2005/1/11
Posts: 234
United Kingdom

 Re: Skielik besef hy die Comrades is oor

Yep, ZekeO ~

We have only one basic rule as believers. That effects how we are willing to be vulnerable. I once read the most amazing writing by a Terry Talbot. I think I was speechless for days. It was all about this. Let me see if I can find it again and put up a link....it's gonna go here, it is a mind blow.

My brother in law did the Comrades for the first time in his life and finished 6000+ PMB is good place, I have plenty family in that hot dry place...The weather is so eratic down here in the Cape.

Yeah, I met plenty ravers on the net. Been surfing here and there, and some of the nastiest critters, with language even a *bergie would be ashamed of.

I have found the softness in Os Guiness'and Wilder Smith's writings so appealing. The biggest argument from those who are not believers, is that we do not open up. We retreat to comfortable verses, instead of saying our truth.[this is a hard view]

Every so now and then one will be allowed through the rants into someone's lounge and then it is magnificent to be honoured with trust.

Enough, I am getting bored with my nattering.

In Jesus,
.A.
:-P
*bergie is a hobo in SA.


_________________
Eric John Sawyer

 2005/6/16 19:21Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

aeryck,

There seems to be something amiss in this.

Quote:
RonB, to retain objectivity, you must try to refrain from making a thread all about yourself.

For all that came before this, that is very peculiar.
Quote:
Your view of whatever it is you are trying to make a point of is not what this thread is about, it is about examining a workable system that allows people to argue effectively.


Oddly it seems as if you didn't hear a word that was said and this response just throws everything you are trying to say right out the window. Besides what you are saying now is not what was expressed at the outset or if it is what Ron shared there is very much the issue. Difficult to respond to this because it seems you are confusing the matter.

Furthermore, to attempt to dictate how or where a particular thread is going is not yours to do. Surely an attempt to keep on some kind of track is warranted, but the strangeness to this is that while you seem to be saying that we ought to be forebearing and at the same time are taking a dig at a brother...?

There is an awful lot of history here that you are not aware of. There has been some very disturbing things that have come through here just on this matter and it is very, very difficult to deal with, to discern and to attempt to moderate, not to mention just grievous.

There was a time when there was a lot of serious discussion without any lack of love, respect or otherwise, even with widely varying opinions. That a necessary 'system' needs to be built is not the answer, there is far too much difference of expression from brethren in all stages of this walk to attempt that, besides it would seem to lean into almost a denominational mindset after awhile.

Unsure what brought this all about in the first place, as a stand alone posting, and agree with almost everything you have brought forth until this peculiar response came forth. Was just as puzzled as to who 'Bob' was before you apparently edited that, which you out to give the rest of the benefit of knowing that you corrected that. If you have some personal problem with our brother here, who is of long standing and a wonderful blessing to us all, perhaps you might take the initiative to discuss matters privately, all this is just making what you are saying here a contradiction.

The general and basic 'rules' are that we consider one another more valuable than our own selves which has far reaching implications, but that is a heart issue ultimately. In fact, all that what Ron wrote earlier is precisely the point and the issue. Conduct is the biggest problem that rears it's ugly head around here. A rudeness of barging in without any concern for the whole or to just push an agenda, a teaching, a whatever. No consideration for what others are expressing... That such pains need to be taken to point it out over and over again.

The rules for engagement are to leave the [i]engagement[/i] aspect out. Very puzzling why this was brought up in the first place.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/6/17 0:46Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

aeryck…maybe you’ve answered your own question.

It occurs to me that we have become too wise for each other. I’m not prompted soley to your offhand comment, but to a pervasive creeping mist of mistrust that has clouded our esteem for other Christians.

It grieves this brother that we are eager to “see” through each other. Discernement is all the rage in these suspicous times. A leader falls and too many people want to claim the prize for predicting it first. Sure, discernment is useful…Yet love and trust are also discerment… discernment of Christ’s heart. Jesus washed our feet and then said that we need to do this for each other. The most important thing I take from this lesson is simple: that I must clean off the dirt that I see on my brother. That I must cover instead of expose. If I assume good motives and am dissapointed then the downside is that I share a little sweet sorrow with the Man of Sorrows.

My wife saw me at my worst but she saw the best. When I went through a season of deep cynicism towards the Church she still respected me like some mighty man of faith. I played dissonant sour notes that were made music by her harmony. I was wise and she played the fool. In circles where other wives critize their ungodly husbands, she was zealous for my reputation and my honour. That is love. There are many types of love for God. Love of truth, love of wisdom, love of repentance, love of worship; all these are worth much. But there are no substitutes for love that believes the best about one another. Why else would love need to be patient and kind?

"Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;"

All too often, I get in the way of the gospel instead of being a servant of the gospel. I obscure Jesus, either in the presentation or my message. It reminds me of the little girl, who when a smaller man was guest speaking could finally see the stained glass window of Jesus behind the pulpit said, “Where’s the man who usually stands there so we can’t see Jesus?”

So why can’t we get along? We think God commends us for our maturity and holiness towards one another. I think we are mistaken. I think He delights in our innocence towards one another.

MC



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Mike Compton

 2005/6/17 3:45Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
All too often, I get in the way of the gospel instead of being a servant of the gospel. I obscure Jesus, either in the presentation or my message. It reminds me of the little girl, who when a smaller man was guest speaking could finally see the stained glass window of Jesus behind the pulpit said, “Where’s the man who usually stands there so we can’t see Jesus?”



on behalf of the preachers among us... ouch! ;-)


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/17 3:55Profile
aeryck
Member



Joined: 2005/1/11
Posts: 234
United Kingdom

 Re: Why can't we all just get along?

crsschk,

I believe that very long comments do very little to bring clarity. In the earlier part of this thread, that was clearly the standard discussed. Refer back, please. [the first four entries]

Searching the scriptures to first of all see if 'argument' is a valid form of behaviour for a Christian might have been a good start.

Second, if the above were discovered to be an acceptable way of behaviour. How does one embark upon such a journey? [Hence some ground rules...]

I suggested a read of Os Guiness' 'Apology for Apolgetics' 1980. Though that was very new back then, it certainly gave some really good guidlines as to how this might be done.

I realize that this is by it's nature a hot issue, and if you prefer rather to delete this thread, then do so.

I am so sorry, I was not clearer, and for being touchy. In all sincerity, I noticed that there is a tendency towards long comments on this site, and I was wondering if one restricted the length of comments a bit, there might be a chance for others who are not so eloquent, to get a word in.

In Jesus,
.A.
:-(


_________________
Eric John Sawyer

 2005/6/17 6:41Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

aeryck

Regarding long comments, perhaps that's true, some of us struggle to just get out a proper expression, it's a learning process. We are not all college educated and why do you feel compelled to dictate what the standards are?

Trying not to read too much into this but is this argumentation for argumentations sake?

There is something that feels of hostility here and that is what I find puzzling and confusing. Not trying to add to that, but understand just what point you are trying to make here.

As Ron made mention, the dividing aspect is most troublesome, the forcing of opinion and making of camps for/against.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/6/17 7:04Profile
aeryck
Member



Joined: 2005/1/11
Posts: 234
United Kingdom

 Re: Why can't we all just get along?

Crrsck:

People will always have differing views, this is inevitable, some will become angry when they are told to stop 'bible punching' or 'forcing your view', or 'give us a truthful word without all the cushioning' etc. Is there such a thing as a 'good argument'...? Maybe that is what I should have titled this thread.

In truth, if you would rather delete this one, I will happily sail on back to the other threads which seems to be getting along a lot better. ['What is Truth?'][Believe, means what exactly?][Tracking down the Ultimate Apologetic]

Sorry once again for this thread, it is beginning to sound a little bit ridiculous. As you said,'argumentation for argumentations', I hoped it might be, 'apology for apologetics', if failed. lol.

Who knows maybe it will still work out, hey?

In Jesus,
.A.
:-P


_________________
Eric John Sawyer

 2005/6/17 7:20Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Why can't we all just get along?

Goodness, just trying to get an understanding here and agree that it is ridiculous. From the original:

Quote:
What are the ground rules for positive argument. The Scripture require that any such argumentation is to be done with:



a) Gentleness
and
b) Respect


OK. Agreed, in that context. But didn't your slight there earlier contradict that?

Quote:
Now why is it you suppose that some Christians operate at full steam and are just plain hateful to one another?



Pride.

Quote:
Would it not be nicer that a specific code, be adhered to so as to eliminate big heads banging into each other...oh yes it happens, everywhere.



If it was just so easy...

Quote:
But what does one do when you enter a thread, and are having a nice old chat and in roars a *hothead and starts crumbling down the good fellowship with domineering arguments and hard views, and no matter how polite one is they just will not relent until eventually no one is talking anymore.


Welcome to my world...It is practically impossible to keep up with everything and when things begin to breakdown in this manner, let one of us know. Not too many months back the level of disruptions that came through this otherwise serious yet respectful marketplace was unbelievable. There are many threads attesting to it and to this whole issue of conduct.

Quote:
Now that was really hard, for me to say, I normally bottle that stuff for the refuse heap.



Again, what brought this forth in the first place? The asterisk was towards a 'self proclaimed prophet' and maybe what is difficult here is if you are speaking in generalities or something bothered you to the point of bringing this all forth.

One of the biggest problems I have seen in how discussions breakdown is in how a superiority complex can come in. A lot of questions that may be asked are ignored with a sense of being 'above it all' often times.

The other big issue is in presumptions and what MC alluded to with discernment to wrong ends.

Misunderstandings abound and patience is a must. Waiting for some clarification often can diffuse many a problem, but only if there is truly a willingness to do so and that is often in just answering others questions.

Alluding back a bit, another is in reading too much into things, asking questions and for clarification is much better than an "I got you pegged mindset" and that is not an accusation just that it too raises it's ugly head often times.

Quote:
Is there such a thing as a 'good argument'...?



Sure! There are many here and if there is a word that seems to hold them together it's, "consider".
Often times it takes awhile for things to develop but have watched some brothers here that early on butted heads somewhat and were coming from such differing views that it seemed an impossibility that it would ever be otherwise. But from considering each other honestly and really hearing rather than only listening have seen views change completely. It is an incredible thing to behold. Not that an argument was won, but just the rarity of hearing, "I changed my mind"... and that wonderful sister, "I was wrong".


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/6/17 8:14Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Another note. Please refrain from using the edit function without explanation, it causes a lot of confusion. It is one thing to correct spelling errors, or make additional comments with a note "edit:", but to change comments midstream is very problematic.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/6/17 8:23Profile





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